OK, I read it, Timo.

Because you asked us to.

I respect that with goodwill.

But ....I fail to see what the article/book has to do with a 'Code' at all.

Am I missing something here?

It is Xenophile and partisan throughout, cherry-picks modern history and ignores the past 2000 years of history altogether. Maybe further chapters deal with that.

Friggin' 911, if it has anything to do with the MRM at all or Men for that matter, is about hysteria. A submissive woman's way of response which is mirrored in an adolescent male way of blowing things out of proportion and going off half-cocked. America's Left and Right both did that.

America was attacked. So what? It was a pimple-prick compared to the Blitz on London and the Bomb on Hiroshima. The sacking of Rome by the Barbarians was a bigger deal. Crikey, Pearl Harbour was a bigger deal.

The response has been an over-reaction of epic proportion. It damaged American Pride. Actually, Hubris.

Muslims as anti-American boogie-man? This connects with a male code, how? I see nothing in d'Souza's treatise that addresses it.

The Muslims invaded Europe with sword and fire and dominated the entire Mediterranean region for 600 years up into France until Christian Europe decided enough was enough and launched the Crusades. That was an eon before America was a twinkle in some Englishman's eye. This Muslim thingo has been going on since Mohammed took up diddling little girls with his willy and taking dictation in shorthand from a schitzophene voice in his head.

American partisan politics? Who, outside America gives a monkey's toss about Republicans and Democrats? One lot of corrupt bastards vs another lot of corrupt bastards. The decline of men's place and the rise of the Ubiquitous Harpy has occured not just in the American Republican system but also in non-Republican political sytems, in Monarchies, in Representative Democracies, even in erstwhile Command Economies. For a Hilary there is a Harman and a Gillard elsewhere. For Bush and O'Barmy there is a Blair a Rudd, a Sarkozy and a Putin.

Left and Right? I suppose one could readily show the connections between Marxism and Feminism and the decline of the West, but the Right has been a collaborator and profiteer more than a counter-force. One looks back at the military effort of the cold war and sees now just posturing while the enemy insinuated itself into the fabric of our Institutions. The soldiers - men- fought, quietly, tenaciously, with a resolve and insistence while the politicians capitulated in every sphere of Ideology and poured Belladonna (the beautiful woman, aptly named for a poison) down our throats.

What has any of this to do with the way a man should conduct himself in the world? What has it to do with the development of personal Integrity and Authenticity and developing the 'better man' inside all of us? Only a strong and measured man can prevail against the forces of evil and decay.

What has it to do with the central and important relationship between men and women and our children?

The 'world' scale has some bearing upon us, I would agree. And politics has some small bearing too. Perhaps, peripherally, religion has a small bearing. But the central issue is both highly personal and individual, and overarching the whole of Humanity.

It is not an American issue. It is International.

It is not a Domestic Politics issue. It is 'domestic' in the home.

It is not a Religious or Cultural issue. It is in individual's souls.

Its roots are in the banality of Evil that eats into men's and women's hearts.

Its roots are in our distorted thinking and failure to develop and use our attributes and qualities.

Its roots are in self-obssession replacing self-examination.

Its roots are in the Faustian Contract.

The West has rejected its 'model' of how men and women conduct themselves in love and dignity, harmony and constructively binding focus on family; and the 'opposing' cultural block of the Muslim world has an archaic and apalling disregard for any of those matters at all.

Rejection, disregard. Little to chose between them.

The men's issue is REPLACEMENT. Starting with what is inside US. Not the U.S.A.

I say we keep poliics out of the code altogether. For the most part I agree with Percy on this one. Hubris had nothing to do with how I felt about 9/11. Thinking that America is the boogie man is precisely the kind of hysteria that Percy was talking about.

But back to politics. Politics has nothing to do with honor as many governments have shown not just the U.S. including Great Britain and Australia.

As feminists have shown politics is all about hysteria and it's use to steer people in the direction the politician wants.Which probably just happens to be a problem they can solve by helping out themselves or a friend.

If an honorable person wants to be involved in politics that is their choice. But actually helping others is what we should be about.

Weakness & politics are the issues that have torn down other codes. I like the neat and clean topics too, but feel the trenches must be made our home too. My hope is to make this code weakness and politics proof. No matter, I shall stick my head in the sand and hope for the best. Let us be the 3 monkeys (one sees no evil, the other hears no evil, and the last says no evil).

I'll be the one who says no evil then. Because we should be very vigilant and should listen closely to the evils around us.

While I do not think we should muddle in politics as far as having it written into the code. I do think that we should either fight or support on a personal level those politicians who are trying to make a difference for good or ill.

And as a group of honorable men we should band together when one of our number sees something evil that needs to be fought.

Just like the old orders of knighthood did. When honorable warrior calls the others should answer. And then each of us must choose to join the fellow warrior or step back and give what support they may.

For instance I love animals. Yet I dislike P.E.T.A. so if Percy made the call to attend a P.E.T.A. meeting I would not go but I certainly would encourage him to do what he thought was right. Because since he is an honorable man I know he would not do anything shameful.

It is the same for politics. Maybe I would support one thing a politician is doing while Percy does not. Or maybe I might go to fight something I see as wrong but others who follow the code do not think it is a big deal.

The honorable action is to support a brother and have faith that his intentions are honorable.

As I said before Timo, am I missing something?

It has been known for me to be dense !

I acknowledge that we live in the world and have to engage society, like it or not.

But what is it that you are proposing?

maybe I should be the deaf-shit.

Quote from chevalier

I'll be the one who says no evil then. Because we should be very vigilant and should listen closely to the evils around us.

While I do not think we should muddle in politics as far as having it written into the code. I do think that we should either fight or support on a personal level those politicians who are trying to make a difference for good or ill.

And as a group of honorable men we should band together when one of our number sees something evil that needs to be fought.

Just like the old orders of knighthood did. When honorable warrior calls the others should answer. And then each of us must choose to join the fellow warrior or step back and give what support they may.

For instance I love animals. Yet I dislike P.E.T.A. so if Percy made the call to attend a P.E.T.A. meeting I would not go but I certainly would encourage him to do what he thought was right. Because since he is an honorable man I know he would not do anything shameful.

It is the same for politics. Maybe I would support one thing a politician is doing while Percy does not. Or maybe I might go to fight something I see as wrong but others who follow the code do not think it is a big deal.

The honorable action is to support a brother and have faith that his intentions are honorable.

yes i agree with that. when it comes to monkeys, i tend to see no evil, just folk doing what they think is right.. Though obviously, they are often working under false premises as to what is the "right" thing to do..

Quote from Percy

As I said before Timo, am I missing something?

It has been known for me to be dense !

I acknowledge that we live in the world and have to engage society, like it or not.

But what is it that you are proposing?

maybe I should be the deaf-shit.

AYe. I too have no idea what timo is proposing should be done regards poiltics. Most political schemes are variations on the same theme I have always thought..

How to organise and motivate humans in society..

Generally, I think they do pretty well by themselves in the main, its only the wider social structure that needs appropriate management.

I think colonel gaddafis green book is an interesting little reference for the development of TRUE democrasy (as opposed to the faux democrasy that exists in the west). Government by representatives is NOT true democrasy.

About every 6 months or less we get someone who joins a forum and says we should support their wing of the political parties because of a,b,c etc. He gets some support for those partial to that side of the political sprectum, and hostility from those on the others side. It divides the wings of the MRA movement a bit more and we have some more people burn out from the disunity. Underlining the Soft/ Hard divide are forces fanning the flames, if you will.

Now as I suggest the idea that some come to do this on purpose, their minimum target is to keep us divided (their status quo remains intact and they win). The two party systems in all democratic nations hate any up in coming force that arises in the ranks of the population. If it grows they try to destroy it with their media. The best example I use for this was when Ska music was called racist, and shows logic will have nothing to do with the attacks to come in the future, and so with any code we must be prepared to defend it or risk it being still-born.

With the world likely going into a depression we are likely to have an increase in new men and even harder attempts, from the forces at be, to make sure we either stay divided or become more alined with their wing of politics. We must decide how to avoid the attacks to the code, for crossing the "Ts" and dotting the "Is" in public will mean they will be prepared to take it down even before we have finished. We must build into the code ways to deal with the attacks honorably (and not simply hope for the best). Hoping for the best is not the way I have run my life and is the reason I'm doing so well right now as almost eveyone else, I know, is hurting big time.

The example I gave at the beginning of this thread was extremely interesting because it showed how moral men fight each other for lesser issues of patriotism, holy land, flattery (from diplomats and media), and in the end ally with forces that are opposed to both their higher set of ideals (which should come first, but instead come last), because they want to be a rooster with many hens, over a meeting of the minds with other roosters who control their beaks and claws. Once these men on both sides, who have a code, go into battle for the hens they slowly destroy both their codes as the conflicts makes them stoop lower to win. For winning is often their version of the "prized code" that has been lost in the conflict. Not dealing with what will be coming down the pipe, is to later stoop as events knock down the ivory tower of ideals as fast as one needs to defend it from another.

When we avoid talking of this (avoid the trenches and prefer the clouds) we set the chicken coop ready for the hens, as they like clean, friendly, talking in the clouds, and will then demand we give up our higher ideals for the comforts we have created by talking of the clean things.

So when I talk of politics I'm not wanting to talk of issues at all for now, but politics as a force that is evil and will destroy what we aim to do before we ever get to getting it down right. To do this we must talk of the big picture of politics and not the small isues based look. The opposite of what I'm asking for in pragmatic topics of the code. Capeesh?

Right, so you are not actually suggesting what we should do, but simply warning us that political groups will try and break the work we do by their influence?

I understand this, indeed, I have noted that many folk leave the fathers groups and go into the wider political arena.

Is this a loss for us?

Not necessarily, because these folk can take their higher and honorable ideals INTO to political groups they join..

And they can, within these groups, promote these ideals with some degree of success and with a hope of real success and the clout of a party, above that which is attainable in a small group of folk..

So, if an ex fathers activist writes up the family law policy for a political party that has some clout, he has made a good headway?

Where I see the serous dangers in the world of weasels that is politics, is when one of the major parties "jumps on the bandwaggon" and starts to suggest that it may be doing things for families/fathers etc...

The reality is, the policies they promote (such as the introduction of state controlled child support etc) are invariably NAILS IN THE COFFIN that the brain dead feminised electorate dont see..

End of the day, politics has become vile because of the fact that most voters are fucking stupid.

Ok, I see where you are, Timo, and thanks for that.

Politics is often called 'the Art of the Possible' but unfortunately the most crucial Principles fall by the wayside in all the "mines's bigger than your's", and "let's you and him fight" games that ensue: Truth and Honesty.

It is essential that a 'Code' of conduct for the individual man and the MRM holds firm to Truth and Honesty.

We have, as a movement, been quite successful in exposing lies - even if to a limited number of readers - and providing truthful assessment. We actually spend quite a lot of our time analysing what the more 'political' folk out there say and do and calling them to account. We don't do it at all effectively, unfortunately (if truth be told) due to out consistent lack of organisation. But some of our 'calls' on the general public's attention to mendacity and downright lies have been spectacularly successful. F4J springs to mind.

Again, as with all of this discussion of a 'Code', we have a two-pronged approach necessitated by the nature of Men and the World we live in. There is out own individual internal Integrity; and there is the general conduct of ourselves as a group of people in getting a message across. All the writing skills in the world won't help if we do not write for those 'outside'. This is where our 'conduct' issues arise and often founder.

There are 'Party animals' (in the political sense) here and there in the MRM and even some higher profile MRAs who stalk the 'Corridors of Power' trying to get their lobbying point across. If a 'Code' is to be useful for them and the MRM's message than they too need to adhere to Principles of Honesty and Truth and be suppported by cool heads here. Our constant forays into bizzare extremes of immorality do not help. Our constant exaggerations and obsessions with minutae do not help.

Personally, I have little faith in the political processes alive in our Democracies. I generally take the view of 'a Pox on all your Houses'. But it is the arena where our laws are made and the rack upon which our society is stretched and men's family bones are broken. Dishonesty and lies, mendacity and dissembling are the tools of trade for most politicians and it disgusts me. It is a maw into which one can get sucked and crunched.

Yet, there is much that the MRM could do from outside with even just a little organisation. It may be the very thing for Haahoo's Activism efforts to address.

Once again I stress the core Principles of Integrity, Honesty, Authenticity as bedrock issues. WE as individuals must have these and let them imbue our conduct - and therefore effectiveness.

Yes percy. The politicians shape our world, but they are not folk like us in many ways.. They are a different type of animal, I fear that the animal that they are becoming will, oddly, bring down "party politics" in the future as a force because feminised politicians simply bend to the more dominant leaders from the world of business etc..

Look at how western governments have let the banks run wild and the mess we are in now because of that..

Fact is, the banks have all the power, money is power, politics has become a profession for whores working under pimps..

The net effect of the work of f4j and the fathers groups has been negative.

That is because the politicians have sealed off that threat now, and society has learned a valuable lesson as a result of it..

The perception as to the power that women wield in the world, especially as mothers, has gone to the wrong people.

Now that women are truly aware of their power, they are simply exploiting it more..

What society learned by removing the threat of the fathers groups is that men are weak and will bend to suit..

This empowers the state and women more.

That is why a new breed is needed..

A breed of man that stands strong to core beliefs that are grounded in realism and solid timeless truths..

Let us trust the politicians to do one thing..

Forever lie and betray..

An indictment of politicians if ever there was one.

[quote=chevalier;135977]I'll be the one who says no evil then. Because we should be very vigilant and should listen closely to the evils around us.

While I do not think we should muddle in politics as far as having it written into the code. I do think that we should either fight or support on a personal level those politicians who are trying to make a difference for good or ill.

And as a group of honorable men we should band together when one of our number sees something evil that needs tobe fought.

Just like the old orders of knighthood did. When honorable warrior calls the others should answer. And then each of us must choose to join the fellow warrior or step back and give what support they may.

For instance I love animals. Yet I dislike P.E.T.A. so if Percy made the call to attend a P.E.T.A. meeting I would not go but I certainly would encourage him to do what he thought was right. Because since he is an honorable man I know he would not do anything shameful.

It is the same for politics. Maybe I would support one thing a politician is doing while Percy does not. Or maybe I might go to fight something I see as wrong but others who follow the code do not think it is a big deal.

The honorable action is to support a brother and have faith that his intentions are honorable.[/quote]
__________________________________________________

Agreed!

A very interesting book that is relevant to this thread is:

The Populist Moment: A Short History of the Agrarian Revolt in America
http://www.amazon.com/Populist-Momen...dp/0195024176/


It chronicles the rise and fall of the populist movement in America in the late 1800s. The movement rose because it was able to offer practical benefits to its members. And the movement fell as soon as it got involved in politics. Politics will corrupt any movement. There are a lot of good lessons in this book that could be applied to an MRA movement.