The arguments I get into on RPG forums

[silentblood]

why is everyone here try to portray Lilith as a villain/antagonist? Is everyone that sexist? Why not make her an ally or something?

First off, using Lilith as a villain does not make someone sexist. I have no idea whether you're a man or woman, and I don't much care. It's a story so get over it. Lilith is a prominent figure throughout the WoD and can easily fit into the role of an ultimate villain. She's thought to be the Mother of Demons(I assume that this is more toward Umbral Demons rather that DtF ones), possibly the mother of the Changing Breeds, the First Mage, and taught Caine to use Disciplines. She has huge potential and there's no reason she can't be used just because it might not be PC.



Secondly, Lilith has reasons to hate all of her enemies. Look throughout WoD lore when she turns up. She's cursed by God, spurned by Caine, abandoned by Lucifer. Everyone she meets will eventually hate her because of God. I never said whether she was right or wrong, just that she wanted revenge. Unfortunately for the world, she plans to go about her vengeance in a big way. There are other circumstances ti the story which are too long to get into.



Thirdly, I was talking about "destroying" God. Lilith, in a way, destroys him/her/it when she absorbs God.



Finally, where are you getting the info on God enslaving humanity? DtF mentions a horrible future for humanity if the Fallen had not intervened, but nowhere does it say God is responsible. The Demons never actually knew the cause just that the future might turn out like that. In VtM God is mentioned in Gehenna, but he punishes the Vampires not the humans. Infact, the Wormwood scenario leaves humanity clueless.


God does seem to work behind the scenes(in the final chapter of Time of Judgement you find out that God asked Lucifer to rebel but not why), but I've never seen anything that shows him as an antagonist.

Yes it IS sexist and misogynistic because your basically making the "first woman" (well according to Judeo-Christan-Islmaic mythology) evil just she rebelled against the Patriarchal oppression at the hands of Adam, God, etc so God created Eve from Adam's rib to be more submissive because of this which this following curse is passed down to every woman on this world. Thus one of the reasons why I don't like Judeo-Christian cosmology and prefer a Mage centric cosmology.

So if the ultimate villain was a man it wouldn't be sexist? Using a prominent female figure as a villain isn't sexist. There's a line between legitimate complaints and irrational accusations. Again, it's a story. Lilith is a prominent character in WoD lore. I picked her because I like her background. Apparently WW liked it as well since they gave her an entire scenario in Gehenna. It's time to remove the stick and realize that it's fiction. There's no need to get riled up and start preaching political correctness over a story that I've barely surmised.

I'm sitting here laughing at the argument that's it's only alright to portray members of the exact, minute demographic as the one doing the telling as being a villain without it somehow being an expression of prejudicial feelings.

Blood Lore, you are the sexist one. Trying to place women in a role where they're incapable of making a personal choice to be evil, power hungry manipulators with sufficient success that they can impact the course of the world. Your glass ceiling on female villainy is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps them down, unable to ascend the evil hierarchy past the point of seducing James Bond and standing around in tight clothing delivering bad double entendres and gender based puns. For shame... for shame.


It's the small minded people like you that kept poor Myca Vykos from freely expressing themselves all those long centuries. The thought that he just couldn't succeed as a demented evildoer if he fulfilled his dreams and changed his name to Sascha. Such oppression! Such unjust adherence to strict gender roles!

I need a better real life example(preferably with links).

[Marx]

You have summed up feminism.. good job!

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by him/her/it? Yes it IS sexist and misogynistic because your basically making the "first woman" (well according to Judeo-Christan-Islmaic mythology) evil just she rebelled against the Patriarchal oppression at the hands of Adam, God, etc so God created Eve from Adam's rib to be more submissive because of this which this following curse is passed down to every woman on this world. Thus one of the reasons why I don't like Judeo-Christian cosmology and prefer a Mage centric cosmology.

If all women were submissive to men, they would not desire to be otherwise, by definition. Therefore, there would be no complaints about being submissive and no woman would see it as a 'curse' either to themselves or to any other woman (let alone every woman). One's choice of religion does not change human nature. Patriarchy cannot exist at a time when only a single man exists, by definition.

The respondent has too little intelligence to debate with, for me. I would switch to some of dad_savage's psych tactics instead.

[BobV01]

First woman? First Sex? I wonder is there a second one:
http://antimisandry.com/mra-books/de...-al-39619.html