I've had some rather interesting conservative female acquaintances over the years...one was an ultraconservative member of the Anglican church here in the USA (Anglo-Catholic), and she was a verger (?)..not sure what that is...

anyway, she developed a bumpersticker that I really loved. It said, "I'm not a homophobe, I'm a theophobe" (she had it made to annoy the pro-gay lobby.)

Normally, when I refer to "god" I am just as much referring to a sense of common human decency as to an actual diety..

Religion only really makes sense if you see it as a means of crowd control..

And a good way of motivating folk to start wars etc..

With a great afterlife with 72 virgins..

Define God, BT, and we might make a sensible discussion.

No cutting and pasting from Thomas Aquinas. Been there, done that. Nor Augustine. Nor Lonergan. Just take all those as read and add something new. (ten points off for repetition and if you managed to get past page 5 of Bernard Lonergan's tome, you get a sweetie).

Quote from Percy

Define God, BT, and we might make a sensible discussion.

God? God is a word invented by linguistic apes.

It seems to mean a higher power or ultimate source of our cosmos.

Psychologically it could be described as a parent-substitute.

In personal terms it seems to be that which we turn to when in crisis.

A mystic might say that God is all.

A skeptic might say that God is shorthand for all the things we don’t understand yet.

A cynic might say that God is only the projection of authority.

A scientist might say that since God cannot be proven to either be or not there is no point discussing the idea.

A savage might say that God is what brings the rains or fights disease.

Maybe God is the embodiment of our highest hopes and dreams.

To paraphrase the Taoists, that which can be described is not the ultimate. Our minds and tongues cannot do justice to the Almighty Creator.

I don’t know what else to say Percy. I still pray to God for help.

OK, BT. Let's look at those.

God? God is a word invented by linguistic apes.

As are all words. Apart from 'thumb'. That was invented by a very smart goldfish.
It seems to mean a higher power or ultimate source of our cosmos.

OK....

Psychologically it could be described as a parent-substitute.

Or even a substitute for bananas

In personal terms it seems to be that which we turn to when in crisis.

Ostensive. Limited. Not useful here. I turn to Glenfiddich.

A mystic might say that God is all.

Conflicts with the 'Source' definition. Mystics say very odd things. God cannot 'be' all and the scource of all at the same time. And where does that leave us?

A skeptic might say that God is shorthand for all the things we don’t understand yet.

I am skeptical about that claim. Might?? I haven't heard a skeptic say that.

A cynic might say that God is only the projection of authority.

They would, wouldn't they.

A scientist might say that since God cannot be proven to either be or not there is no point discussing the idea.

Some scientist! To be or not to be is the question. Bil Shakespeare said so. The objective of science is to disprove. The Null Hypothosis still stands. Your scientist mate might say that the electro-magnetic force was irrelevant for discussion before Faraday. Scientists! Huh!

A savage might say that God is what brings the rains or fights disease.

Leave the woman next door out of this.

Maybe God is the embodiment of our highest hopes and dreams.

Maybe? That's not very definitive let alone defining.

To paraphrase the Taoists, that which can be described is not the ultimate. Our minds and tongues cannot do justice to the Almighty Creator.

Funny lot, the Chinese.

I don’t know what else to say Percy. I still pray to God for help.

Recommended readings: Augustine; Tielhard; Aquinas; Lonergan. All pretty good for analyses and definition. Two are 20th Century too, so bang up to date.

Meanwhile I might say that our believing in God or not makes little difference. Whether He continues to believe in us, well that may make a huge difference.

Are we supposed to be having an academic debate? Am I supposed to be showing off my erudite knowledge? An intellectual pissing contest?

I'm not the most learned person, and I don't have time to study the opinions of every philosopher or teacher. God, if he exists, should be able to speak to all of us, regardless of class or education. If you prefer an elitist path that's your choice.

You seem to be a contrarian Percy.

You seem to be a contrarian Percy.

You have something against that denomination? We Contrarians respond. It was you who offered a 'Taxonomy', the first level of academic data analysis. I thought that is what you sought.

I'll just shut up then.

An alternative view, not my own but described eloquently by Alan Watts, a deceased American Zen Buddhist and prolific writer.

(his books have gone rotten in our tropical climate and I'm quoting from memory)

Let's say, a few billion years ago, a group of highly-intelligent beings were doing a tour of the universe. When they passed the vicinity of Earth they would have seen nothing but huge clouds of dust and gas. "Drive on" they would have said, "10,023 light-years from tomorrow, at 9am intergalactic time, I have to be back at my desk."

A few billiion years later their children/mind offspring/clones decide to take a second trip and suddenly find Planet Earth. "Who would have thought it?". My Dad, Mother, incubator would never have bet on that. You can actually make a peopling-planet from that garbage heap??? Wonders never cease!"

We might still be E-minus in univeral understanding but we might get a B-plus for "promising".

Quote from Billy

The bible says that everyone has a little knowlege that there is a God.
Most everyone would have to wonder about our existance at some point in life. When we look at the many mysteries of life, the beauty found in nature and the colossal universe it is hard for me to believe that everything happened by accident or by chance, happenstance some call it.

Only those who believe in a afterlife could have something to look forward too after death. Without a belief in a higher power I would probably be a very cold, selfserving and possibly a mean individual or much more than I am currently.


-the ex-atheist
`

Speaking as an atheist who used to be Christian I would say that's unlikely. If you stopped believing in God you would probably be pretty much the same person you are now. If you are a nice guy now, you would be a nice guy as an atheist. If you are a jerk now, you would probably be a jerk as an atheist.

A few weeks ago, my sister died. I don't feel much remorse since she had been very sick for a very long time and I knew it was coming soon anyway. After she died, the thought that I had was that my mother didn't treat her well when she was growing up (my mother was kind of abusive towards her). Then my mother calls me on the phone, crying, saying that my sister is dead but that she is in heaven now. It kind of came across to me that she was sub-consciously using heaven as a way to excuse herself from not treating her well when she was still alive.

If there is no afterlife, then the time to treat people well is now. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. When you're dead, it's too late.

Quote from Billy

When the commandments were allowed in schools there was much less killing among students.

Killing students in school is nothing new. In 1927 there was a school bombing in Bath Township, Michigan. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

In fact, this is considered to be the deadliest school attack in US history, even worse than the Columbine incident.

Also, consider the Beslan school hostage crisis that was caused by radical Muslims who happen to believe the ten commandments.

Take away the knowledge of good and evil and evil will become normal. You grew up believing so you knew wrong from right and it's inbred in you as it was with me.

I don't know what sort of atheists you know, but I don't know of very many atheists who think that school shootings are good. Besides, the two students who fired guns at Columbine attended a Lutheran church where I am sure they probably heard about the ten commandments.

I did turn from the faith and did things my way for years. I feel much shame and remorse for things I did. Trust me, If I didn't believe in an afterlife I would think about things much differently.

That's a common story for Christians who didn't really leave the faith, but simply stopped "doing" it for awhile. In other words, while you "left the faith" subconsciously you still believed it.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Yes but what is the point of treating others good?

From a selfish point of view, treating others good makes a lot of sense. The reason is that the cliche "nobody is an island" is really true. In order for you to even respond to me, you have to have a computer which I bet, you didn't build yourself (or if you did, I bet you didn't make all of the components). In other words, someone else built it for you. Also, I assume you ate today. I would bet that you probably didn't grow the food you ate yourself. If you have money (which I assume you do since you have a computer unless you are borrowing someone else's computer) you probably rely on your boss liking you enough to keep you in your job. Or if you are self employed, you rely on your customers liking you in order to buy your products.

In other words, there are A LOT of things in your life that you depend on others for. In order to live well in such a world, you have to do things that motivate other people to treat you well. Or at least, not treat you badly.

Being happy while believing once your gone it's all over does make many think their happiness is more important than that of others.

Not necessarily. From the above it's easy to see that other people's happiness has a big influence on whether or not you are happy.

I could be all about my happiness now and piss on everyone else.

Yeah, but if you try that then other people will do things like put boogers in your food, or fire you since you said something rude at work.

Hey nothing really matters if we exist for a short time and it ends.
ie: I could murder, rape or steal since nothing matters but me now..

Just because something only lasts a short time doesn't mean it doesn't matter. For example, your breath only lasts a few seconds so I guess it doesn't matter. Why don't you try not breathing and see what happens?

Besides, if this is the only life you have, do you want it to be one where you were a murderer or a rapist or a robber? I would think that if there was more than one life then it would make MORE sense to be a murderer or rapist because after all, if you fuck this life up, at least you get another shot.

I must strive to be forgiving. It is one of my weaknesses and I could be very vindictive if I didn't believe the way I believe. I overcome this weakness because of my faith.

Have you ever considered that the stuff you are not forgiving of are issues that actually need to be addressed instead of issues where you "forgive" and then forget about it?

Catch my drift?

Yeah, but I don't need a big powerful guy to tell me that rape is wrong and that I shouldn't do it. Who is the better person? A guy that believes that rape is wrong because God exists, or the guy who thinks that rape is wrong regardless of whether God exists or not?

Quote from Billy

While their was nutcase here or there it wasn't like what we are witnessing today. This guy was obviously a nutcase. Most violence was a fist aimed at someones face not with guns or bombs designed to kill.

Given that the Bath case is considered to be the WORST school incident in US history, it's a given that it doesn't compare with what is happening today. But I didn't think you were trying to make the point that things are better now.

The whole rest of your post can be replied to very easily with this one small part.

But of course we don't won't to be the victim but if this is the only life why not do whatever makes you happy even if it's harmful to others? But we are not given liberty to murder and rape and have hope in an enternity.

Basically, you are telling me that you are the kind of person who would be happy murdering or raping people. Such a person is not the kind of person I would want to hang around with or is a person I would consider moral. Earlier you asked me if pretending to be nice to people is selfish or deceitful. What about your case? In your case apparently you would be happy murdering, or raping, or doing drugs, or hanging out with bad people. And the only reason you are not doing that is because it would anger some "god". Aren't YOU being deceitful and dishonest in that case?

But based on your post, when you were in rebellion, you lied, and stole, but apparently you didn't murder or rape anyone. Why didn't you? In fact, if you stopped believing in God today, I doubt very much that you would murder or rape anyone. In fact, I imagine that the idea of murdering or raping anyone repulses you and is not something you are thinking would be fun to do if only you didn't have God in the way.

I'm not about to sit quietly by and allow someone to screw me. This is not what scripture tells us in most cases.

You should NOT let people scam you. It's scripture in this case that is being silly. After all, people who engage in the Nigerian scam ask for money all the time (presumably for the purpose of transferring millions into your bank). Jesus said that you should give to whoever asks of you. Well, the guys doing the Nigerian scam are asking, so why aren't you giving them any money like Jesus commands?

In fact, I would like for you to give me $50. Please give me $50. If you send me a private message I will give you an address to where you can mail the check.

In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 5:42 "Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

Well, as the paragraph preceding that one shows, I am asking you, and I would like to borrow from you. So why don't you follow Jesus's commandment of "Give to him that asketh thee"?

I think you know that you should not give money to things you know are a scam (even if the scammers are indeed "asking thee"). But you won't find that moral principal in the Bible. The Bible never says to not give money to scam artists.

In my days of rebellion I never desired to harm anyone either. I didn't need God to tell me it was wrong either. So in that sense we are the same. But if you really need to be the bigger guy here I'll give you that and anything else I can help you with.

It's not about whether you specifically, or I specifically is the bigger guy. It's about what kind of person you think is the better guy. Do you think a person is a neato keeno guy if he would like to rape and murder and won't do it because God will punish him for it. Or do you think a better guy would be someone who thinks that rape and murder is wrong regardless of whether he would be punished by God or it or not?

Society should be darn glad I do believe in a Higher Power that commanded "Honor thy father and thy mother", because otherwise, my mother would be out on the street (literally), with no one to care about her (those of you who know my history with her, know why that would be.)

The commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother" is, honestly, and truly, the ONLY thing keeping me involved with her.

Quote from Billy

That was rare case. And if the columbine kids bombs hadn't failed then it would have been the worst incident in our history. The guy in the Bath case wasn't even a school kid running around shooting people..

Who do you think would be more likely to have been taught right from wrong. A child, or an adult?

Basically I didnt tell you anything like that. Basically you are telling me that you have reading comprehension problems!

Earlier you said, and I quote

Hey nothing really matters if we exist for a short time and it ends.
ie: I could murder, rape or steal since nothing matters but me now..

For someone who is only interested in themselves why would they stop breathing? But since there is no future beyond the grave, it wouldn't matter if I stole from others or even murdered people.

But of course we don't won't to be the victim but if this is the only life why not do whatever makes you happy even if it's harmful to others?

Now let's look at that last quote in light of what YOU say earlier, YOU say that if there is no future beyond the grave it wouldn't matter if you murdered people. So let's look at it this way

1) If there is no afterlife, it would not matter if I murdered people.
2) If there is no afterlife, I would do whatever made me happy, even if it is harmful to others.

Since YOU are making BOTH statements, I can take these statements and infer that you would in fact murder people if it made you happy. I was simply trying to show you the absurdity of that position by telling you that someone who would be happy murdering people is not someone I would consider moral.

I never once said murdering or raping would make me happy.

You said that it wouldn't matter if you murdered someone and then said that you would do whatever made you happy. Therefore, you are implying that committing murder would be something that might make you happy.

I am merely applying logic to what you say.

Besides, I have this question for you. Is stealing wrong because God says it's wrong? If that is the case, then if God told you that raping a 5 year old is ok, then it would be ok? Or is God merely telling you that stealing is wrong because it is objectively wrong independent of what God says and he is merely reporting it to you?

Quote from Annette1313

Society should be darn glad I do believe in a Higher Power that commanded "Honor thy father and thy mother", because otherwise, my mother would be out on the street (literally), with no one to care about her (those of you who know my history with her, know why that would be.)

The commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother" is, honestly, and truly, the ONLY thing keeping me involved with her.

Ok, Annette. How about this?

[/quote]
Any of the people of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who give any of their offspring to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone them to death. I myself will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people, because they have given of their offspring to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. And if the people of the land should ever close their eyes to them, when they give of their offspring to Molech, and do not put them to death, I myself will set my face against them and against their family, and will cut them off from among their people, them and all who follow them in prostituting themselves to Molech.

If any turn to mediums and wizards, prostituting themselves to them, I will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord; I sanctify you. All who curse father or mother shall be put to death; having cursed father or mother, their blood is upon them.

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. [Leviticus, chapter 20]

[/quote]

I myself have "lied with a man" a few times in my life. Would you say that I should be put to death? That's what your God says should be done with me. I have also went to psychics who have done things like tarot readings for me. When I was a Buddhist, I had Buddha statues in my apartment.

But let's get back to the "man lies with a male" part. Since I have done that (on more than one occasion in fact) is there "blood" upon me? If so, whose blood is upon me? I have not murdered anyone and the sex was consensual on both sides. You may personally feel that doing such a thing is "gross", but does it deserve death?