Do you want a serious and considered answer?

I would certainly be happy to express one based on my observations through a half century of life experience, and over a decade in the cause, some would even metaphorically call the front line of the movement.

Further, in your title when you say ‘you people’ do you mean the members of this forum, the wider men’s movement, or men in general?

Yes, I was hoping for a legitimate answer. and by "you people" I meant men in general. I simply cannot understand the lack of motivation to get the proverbial ball rolling

A a veteran you might have some insight on how hard it is to get men to join together and fix bayonets, to grab for a metaphor, much less the system, so the notion of being a band of brothers to look out for our own interests looks like a long uphill climb. Doesn't military training teach one to set their common-sense urge for self-preservation aside and follow orders without question?

Nothing like that approach seems available or even appropriate when it comes to this kind of fighting for freedom. But, not unlike what your country asked of you, defining actual success may come just as hard.

Hi Joseph,

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, I have similar experiences and share your frustration. Off the top of my head, there are two things I could say about this.

First, I want to give a couple of quotes by Alinsky...

"...if people feel that they don't have the power to change a bad
situation, then they do not think about it." - Alinsky, Rules for
Radicals 1971.

"Remember, too, that a powerless people will not be purposefully
curious about life, and that they then cease being alive" - Alinsky, Rules for
Radicals 1971.

Secondly, there is a biological element to this. Men are hardwired to cooperate with and defend women. This is too indepth to go into here. Perhaps you might be interested to read "The Woman Racket" (Moxon).

There's another issue. Don't be surprised if you discover that men's movement (at the moment) is a sea of damaged men. GirlWritesWhat has a good take on this: Angry misogynists! - YouTube

Do not become disillusioned and turn away from the MRM--we really needs guys like you.

I agree with you Joseph.

What is with this business that men are hardwired to cooperate with and defend women?

I believe this is learned behavior because if it came so naturally why would men need constant reminders and to be shamed into doing these things?

What is with this business that men are hardwired to cooperate with and defend women?

Men compete with each other for the attention of women. It has an evolutionary origin. Women are the bottleneck in reproduction, whereas one man can impregnate 100s of women. Women are more valuable in subsistence level societies, whereas men are disposable for that reason. You have the phrase, "Women and children first!", but never, "Men and children first".

Quote from Andy Man

Men compete with each other for the attention of women. It has an evolutionary origin. Women are the bottleneck in reproduction, whereas one man can impregnate 100s of women. Women are more valuable in subsistence level societies, whereas men are disposable for that reason. You have the phrase, "Women and children first!", but never, "Men and children first".

If men cooperate with and defend women for reproductive reasons doesn't it defeat the purpose for men to cooperate with and defend women in their role in the destruction of men and society? Or are we only biologically concerned with reproduction and not the progression of our society as well?

I still think this "movement" business is a trap. Short of an ability to dominate the media (which I don't see on the horizon), we open ourselves by calling it that to whatever interpretation is in vogue as to what that movement represents, and seem to spend a lot of energy shouting down basic dismissal of our right to have one. Like CBS News and Readers Digest destroyed the peace movement after Vietnam by associating it with everything from runaways to Charles Manson, what chance do we have of defending that one strong point when the word itself is meaningless to begin with?

I say we have a much more adult and globally relevant agenda than forming movements and acting like revolutionaries. If we want to learn anything from feminism for its effectiveness in a value-neutral light, it is the ideas of feminism, not the movement aspect of it, that penetrate and dominate the media interpretations of gender.

There aren't enough real feminists in a "movement" sense to fill a high school gym. What we have are generations of younger women who inherited an ideology they have no issues with, who are more than happy to try and stay in charge with fifty-year-old rhetoric and civil-rights-style lobbying because it is the only basis they have for their self-image of victimized superiority.

Our agenda, conversely, is a compassionate, constructive one, about preserving families and raising standards of justice. Calling such a mature agenda a movement just invites the slander and the stereotyping because the media is too pre-indoctrinated to even examine its own standards. They are misandrist without even knowing it, they think their values are normal and reasonable. Isn't it just common knowledge that men are bad caregivers and abusive to families?

What we need to do is change the terms of the dialogue intelligently and inescapably, not line up to shout their terms down with chants and slogans.

I’m working on it. It’s going to be a long answer Joseph, hopefully with a short conclusion.

Quote from Trauma Fried Brains

I’m working on it. It’s going to be a long answer Joseph, hopefully with a short conclusion.

I doth await your conclusion with bated breath

Quote from Joseph Girmann

Yes, I was hoping for a legitimate answer. and by "you people" I meant men in general. I simply cannot understand the lack of motivation to get the proverbial ball rolling

I’ll express my answer based on my personal view of how I see people function, although I don’t expect people will like it because human beings tend to indulge their comforts with delusions rather than accept the realities which they find reducing to their ego. It’s going to be a long answer, primarily for your information as an individual because I believe there is more hope and integrity with someone who is relatively new to the men’s movement.

I am not going to give surveys and studies to back up my personal views, because I expect they are rare or nonexistent. As human beings, we wish to deny them. So in the absence of proofs, I ask that you consider them through the perspective aired in the iconic Sentence of your founding fathers: I (we) believe these truths are self evident.

In recently having your eyes opened by Jack Kammer’s book you said you were ‘mortified’. The route to my perspective is different. I was never surprised by what we know of as misandry, I gradually became aware if it from my teenage in the 1970’s and built on my understanding progressively since that time. I never took the red pill, because I didn’t need to. If you’re not aware of the red pill metaphor, there are many references to it in the MRM, a concentration of some can be found on this website: A Voice for Men | Masculine Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry or just Google red pill and misandry.

Some might wonder if I took the red pill when I experienced my ex turning toxic and separating me from my son and much else when I had done nothing wrong, Or they might wonder if I was on the red pill when I became an active protester within a number of the fathers4justice groups – but as I implied, it was always in my blood. There was no awakening or mortification with the volumes and countless features and posts I have read on the subject – just a reinforcing of my world view and an area of perception I call gender dynamics.

I’m talking about human nature here, the very self evident truths we hate to perceive because they tell us our minds are not as autonomous as we like to think they are. These truths do not depend on any particular understanding of existence, they are simply there to observe and behold. It does not matter if you think we exist as God’s creation or are a product of nature, or other views on such issues; the truths are observable if you dare, under whatever beliefs of higher questions you personally hold.

Misandry has always existed as long as people have, but we are very talented at rationalising it and believing the opposite. Some say it is the socio-political movement of feminism that is responsible for it, but that is merely a modern veneer to misandry. We are all responsible, to varying degrees, in upholding misandry even if we call ourselves MRA’s and it is an observable part of fundamental human nature. You can see it all around you today, and in the histories of every culture, once you take the red pill, or are a freak like me.

Misandry is every much a part of human nature as tribalism is. Tribalism has always been there too, although in the area of racism, we have learnt to recognise and denounce it consciously – or would that be culturally. A fool will deny he has natural tribal tendencies (not necessarily ethnic ones) as that fool is denying he doesn’t hold human nature in his being. The same is very much so for misandry.

So perhaps, that’s the answer, men are fools. Well actually, I don’t think it’s that simple, and if we were to consider men as fools, then it wouldn’t be that different for everybody else anyway. It is something more than that. It is a question of sentience; what I mean by that is, it is a question of how much your thoughts, values and actions are derived ultimately by your intellect. Not very much I guess, myself included, but the illusion is that they are; and it’s important to regard the ‘ultimate’ part of the last sentence. Sure, all are thoughts, values and actions are derived from our intellect, but not ultimately, I believe. For our intellect, simply rationalises our instincts whilst giving the illusion that our intellects are free when rather, our intellects are slaves to our instincts. And so, we are sub-sentient, that’s what’s wrong with us. Through our intellects we aspire to something better, we can sub-sentiently recognise the pain and destruction misandry brings and wish it go away. But our aspirations are trumped by our instincts.

As opposed to the lofty jive in the above paragraph, the basic point is that we are all misandrists by nature, and even MRA’s rationalise themselves out of it. That’s what’s wrong with us. You can see that answer in the evasive responses of those who are deployed with you when they showed ‘indifference and even open Scoffing’.

But what of the one who listened politely and agreed with you, is he also a misandrists? Well put it this way, he’s human isn’t he? Maybe you’ve set a spark of realisation in him, and maybe he’ll become an MRA and even join a forum like this. Let me tell you, have no illusions please. We are all misandrists – to a degree. I’ve seen the self evident truth all too often. Being new, maybe you feel the people here are not misandric, but I believe they are, myself included.

I have seen how regularly they shy away from purposeful campaigning just so they can carry on moaning about how bad it is to each other knowing that here, they won’t be condemned for it like in the wider world. Just consider the monumental records of this place going back 7 years and consider what they have actually done. ‘Preaching to the converted’ is a cliché often banded about in the MRM and quite applicable to this place. I’ve too often seen how a plan is privately presented to members here who actually agrees its merits and expresses what confidence and hope it gives them; only for them to then ignore it and return to metaphorically sucking their thumb here and continue bitching about how bad the shit is. That’s misandry, their misandry, all our misandry.

Of course there are those that go on to do some form of purposeful campaigning, but it’s mere tokens compared to their capability and potential to work together. With some rare exceptions, most of the best work done by MRA’s is noticeably the efforts of lone wolves proving that we are too misandric to coalesce and put our misandric egos aside to work collectively more often. We squander the principle of ‘the whole is greater than the sum of its parts’ to indulge our misandric tendencies in dreams of personal glory, whilst we call ourselves MRA’s.

Unlike you we are not forced to work together from military discipline and the threat of a court martial. Or in Civey Street, we don’t stand to loos our job and not pay the mortgage when MRA volunteers refuse to put their egos aside and work together like they do in a job of work.

There’s you’re self evident proof. All this effort by MRA’s shows how instinctively they indulge their comforts of moaning about it rather than applying it purposefully together.

I’m guessing that’s not the answer you wanted, or even believe, but it is my answer. Further, if you do believe it, I’m guessing the answer you really want is ‘what can we do about it’.

That answer is so long, and my ability to express it so impractical, that I’ll spare us both the ordeal, but a colleague may approach you with something more concise.




Despite all the above gloom, I do want to leave you with some hope though. We are talking about instincts, fundamental instincts that we all hold as human beings. The picture I’ve painted may sound that that our intellects are always slaves to our instincts. Not so, history has given us a brilliant example to the contrary.

The tribal instinct I mentioned before, of course it’s a part of all of us, even you, otherwise you wouldn’t have the wit to function in a unit in Afghanistan would you? So that version of tribalism we call racism shows we can overcome our instincts. With tremendous intellectual will, history records how slavery was abandoned by a society that didn’t actually need to, and at some financial disadvantage to itself. A clear, but rare example, of our intellect suppressing instincts rather than the more usual other way around.

The MRM has yet to make that leap of sentient advancement though.

Too many guys are competing for mediocre pussy. That may sound crass but, many men are willingly settling for lower status women just for regular sex and reproductive success.
Keeping the conflict to a minimum is the main goal of most of these men even, when that means pretending to be less human than the mediocre wife.
Paul Elam has a saying I rather enjoy, "What if we had a gender war and, the men showed up?"
For half a century feminism has faced no real opposition. Female supremacists have hidden themselves in a language of "equality" while seeking nothing resembling equality at all. They seek all the perks and benefits of chivalry along with PC BS equal outcome legislation only where it has a positive benefit to women alone.

Joseph, if you haven't already please watch the entire ManWomanMyth series on youtube or Man Woman & Myth | Truth, Lies and the War on Men

Quote from dinohip51

Our agenda, conversely, is a compassionate, constructive one, about preserving families and raising standards of justice.

However, too many people are only interested in the destructive.

I believe the answer is that people, in general, are willingly ignorant - or, dumb on purpose.

Quote from Joseph Girmann

Why don't more men care about what is happening to them? I feel like I'm offering a way to join together to fix the system and NO ONE CARES!

I do believe that history tells us that humans, by nature, don't really care of the threats and dangers of anything until it's too late