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  1. #1
    Richard's Avatar
    Richard is offline Established Member
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    Gender politics - equality or tolerance?

    What is the difference between equality and tolerance?

    Do we really believe in equality? One man, one vote, equality before the law…but that’s about it. Try telling people they should all have an equal wage – or be in equal size.

    No, we tolerate such differences – within reason, less in Europe, more in the US.

    Do we really want gender rights equality? Do people really want gays lesbians, etc (LGBT) to have equal rights to hetrosexuals? Has this ever been put to a vote?

    Do people really want to allow gays to be married, and adopt children? Do people want their kids to be taught in schools – to which parents cannot object – that being gay is perfectly acceptable and that gays should be allowed to adopt? Has a referendum been held on the issue?

    We hear so much about bisexuals, trisexuals demisexuals and god knows that else on this forum, that any new hetro man might well wonder where all the “normal” men have gone. Its like its almost a sin or social shame to stand up and say I am a hetro and I like women.

    As a hetro for some reason I feel a lot under pressure – its as though its wrong to be a hetro, but for me being hetro is ultra cool. It is not boring, nor bland – indeed there are no end of variety of fun things we can do.

    So where does this leave sexual minorities? In my short time on this forum (3-4 months?), I have seen a steady stream of a variety of (male) genders appear as our members. When such people appear as refugees from feminists you know this is a good sign as the feminist show how intolerant they are.

    And that is the key word for me - TOLERANCE. I have no problem with gays, bi’s, etc. They have always been around and always will. They often add a bit of colour, cosmopolitanism, and sometimes even have the best damh clubs in town.

    But that is where I draw the line. They have freedom of speech, just like anyone else, but need to remember they are a minority and have MINORITY RIGHTS and not equality. I do not believe that gays should be allowed to openly and legally adopt.

    Now, we all know two guys, “uncles”, “aunts”, “sisters” etc living together and its often quite clear what is going on. Good luck to them. What they do behind their closed door is their private affair, ifs its between consenting adults. If it ends up they have a child, well, it can be a policy of “don’t ask don’t tell”.

    A policy of tolerance is a noble one. A policy of equality is a dangerous one. How far does equality go? The answer is all the way. Are equal rights to extend to same sex marriage in church – yes this is what they are pressing for in the UK now, and journalists are asking when the first catholic priest will end up before a judge for refusing a same sex chruch marraige. Whose rights dominate? What if I own a restaurant and refuse to sex same sex couples? Equality means they are equal to hetros to adopt. Whose rights are to be dominate – the right to religion or the right to sexual expression.

    “So what’s wrong with that” you may well ask.

    For me, while not being a practicing christain (bordering on agnostic), I do believe that he basis of society and life is a man and a woman. Full stop. Once we allow open same sex marriages with kids, we in effect abolish the family. Why? Well, if same sex “families” are openly accepted because they “provide the right level of love and care”, then what is to stop other “institutions” appearing and claiming they offer better levels of love and care. After all, we all know – as psychologists non-stop tell us, how destructive the family is – it is a logical step to allow psychologists to redesign the family (and one or two psychologists on this forum are doing exactly that), or better still, allow other institutions to play a role and recent history offers horrible examples of social experimentation. In today’s world, maybe corporations would like to get in on the game. Maybe corporations/businesses can offer a better and safer solution? After all, corporations have succeeded elsewhere and conquered the world.

    No, for me, I draw the line at a man and a woman. Equal rights, no way, tolerance, definitely. And I don’t care if to say such a thing is politically incorrect – indeed I am sure many of you are reading this and holding your breath – this shows how far we have degenerated. Even if I was in a minority of one I would uphold my view, for it is not popularity I am seeking, but to uphold fundamental VALUES, and in todays world that seems very unpopular.

    I really do fail to understand why we are so quick to attack, undermine, subvert, ridicule and destroy institutions that have served us well. We are rushing headlong into the unknown because it has been made trendy to attack anything traditional. And what has been the result? Broken families, skyhigh welfare bills? Are we really better off than say 100 years ago?

    For all the armies of psychologists, we have degenerated to new lows. I have returned to my native Britain after 20 years as an expat and I see a wasteland.

    I am left asking, what if psychologists aren’t part of the answer, what if they are part of the problem?

    Indeed some psychologist no doubt do good work – but one just has to look at family courts and the role of psychologists there – that to a great degrees shows their true face. And the history of psychologists in the USA is one of social control and social engneering - and if one doubts ths for a single second, then look at how psychology and Freudism came to the USA and its role through to the early 1970s.
    Last edited by Richard; 12th-May-2011 at 05:22 PM.
    The greatest enemy of the truth is very often not the deliberate lie - but the persistent, persuasive and unrealistic myth that the lie creates

  2. #2
    Lady Catherine's Avatar
    Lady Catherine is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - equality or tolerance?

    I am for equality all the way across the board, this extends to men, women, and everything in between, it doesn't matter if you are queer or not.

    have MINORITY RIGHTS and not equality
    I do not think LGBT people should be coddled, but I think they should have the same rights as heterosexual people. Minority rights imply that they get special rights on the account that they are minorities.

    I do not believe that gays should be allowed to openly and legally adopt.
    I have not been convinced either way and even LGBT people having children is a rarity as it is. We do not have real data that is unbiased about the effects of gay parenting. I am fine with the idea of gay adoption, I'm not going to get upset if my gay neighbors adopt a kid. For all I know, they could make wonderful parents.

    Once we allow open same sex marriages with kids, we in effect abolish the family.
    This is a slippery slope argument. It is logically fallacious to equate same-sex marriage(or as I advocate civil unions) with the destruction of the family.

    After all, we all know – as psychologists non-stop tell us, how destructive the family is
    No, this is not what psychologists say. Psychologists(especially family psychologists) say that the family unit is the most effective way to raise a child...

    it is a logical step to allow psychologists to redesign the family
    ... but, we do not know what the ideal family model is, nor are we trying to "redefine" it. As I see it, a family is two parents and kids, though I really don't see a problem with poly people having kids either(in fact I happen to know a poly "quadrupling" that has kids, and they turned out ok).

    but to uphold fundamental VALUES
    What? Freedom, equality, and justice? I thought everyone supported those principles here in the west

    I really do fail to understand why we are so quick to attack, undermine, subvert, ridicule and destroy institutions that have served us well.
    Again, you're making the assumption that extending the same equivalent rights to LGBT people is going to destroy the institution or damage it in anyway. Note that I do believe that marriage is a cultural and religious thing, and is seperate from the state, I beleive that religious and private institutions should be able to deny adoption or marriage to LGBT people.
    The Bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie
    The Bagavad Gita did not fall from the sky
    These are the books that are written by men
    They've caused wars, now follow if you can

    First they created sin so they could win
    Then they built the cages they could put us in
    Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
    Then they took away the Earth and gave us hell -- Corporate Avenger - The Bible is Bullshit

  3. #3
    Richard's Avatar
    Richard is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - equality or tolerance?

    Lady C: "No, this is not what psychologists say. Psychologists(especially family psychologists) say that the family unit is the most effective way to raise a child... [/QUOTE]

    MY REPLY
    Well, I wont debate ad infinitum with you. You have made your position very clear. I do not agree with and I am sure most people do not support it - indeed if you do not fear your views, perhaps we could hold a vote on this forum "Should gays be allowed to adopt while normal hetrosexual couples are denied this right and fathers are denied to see their kids"?

    I will make just 3 main points:

    1/You say there is no evidence that same-sex families are detrimental to kids. Is there evidence that they are good for kids? No, just someone one day decided to allow gays to have kids "and lets see what happens" - sounds like a social experiment to me.

    2/Read about the history of Freud and psychology in the USA and tell me that psychology in the USA is not about social control and social engineering - but dont take my word for it - the BBC have a major award winning documentary on it, a summary of which I will write up for this group when I can. (those who want it, PM me and I will give you info)

    3/I quote you above, if psycholgists REALLY believe that the family is the core unit, then why are fathers denied the right to see their children after/during divorce? How many psycholgists stand up in court and say what the courts are doing is wrong, or denounce the mothers? Is it upon the opinion of psychologists that court base (or hide behind) when they make judgements.

    You claim to be a psychologist (you are not a member of any professional association, so you are as much a self-styled psychologist as I am, and by the looks of the amount of time you spend here, have few clients) but lets see you put your mouth where the money is. Lets see you name names of psychologists who support the status quo, lets see you stnad up for mens/fathers rights in a real way.

    You do a lot of talking here, but saying little of value, as a psychologist. Your posts have failed to meet general expecations that one wold have of a "doctor". (I also have a phd, etc, but I don't boast about it here, I want people to listen to my arguements, not be impressed by the 25 or so letters I have after my name)

    Most people would agree that on this forum you have "refugee" status and you shout non stop about minority rights - well here's the REAL ISSUE, us men are the MAJORITY and we are looking for BASIC rights to be fathers and men, not worry about minority rights. I find your posts colourful and entertaining rather than informative - for an informative post I look at Percy's posts. At least he scans the worlds press for interesting stories and does not write about himself non stop.
    Last edited by Richard; 12th-May-2011 at 06:20 PM.
    The greatest enemy of the truth is very often not the deliberate lie - but the persistent, persuasive and unrealistic myth that the lie creates

  4. #4
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    BobV01 is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    Gender is gender, but sex is sex, there are only two, that is how scientist classify things. For a long time the family unit was afforded special protections they had rights and protections above others for reason;
    This is where the youngest citizens come from.
    Children are a special group of homosapiens, we assume they are not fully able to defends themselves especially from sexual predators.
    Raising children, providing a basis for their development into mature human beings is a special task, labor and thought intensive always responsive to the children's needs these are tasks that some adults take on, in addition, to all of the others ones we all share.
    Children are of course impressionable, probably something like a blank tablet, which is why predators, and feminists (is there no difference) and Lesbian, Gay, Bi sexual (having sex with both sexes) and Transexuals seek them out.
    Sex I need more sex, that is no way to plan for a successful life and that is the problem,
    there are other things as well adults need to focus upon.
    Wasteful comsumption, conspicous consumption what are we leaving for our heirs?
    He said- she said-the teacher said- the other kid said-the social worker said...
    relationships evolve and sometimes adults choose to follow that evolution into seperation, they still need to co-parent together,
    Studies have shown intact families are best, when marriages dissolve Fathers are critical.
    Adults make choices, many they are entitled to,
    when they effect lives of others, especially children, the freedoms become restricted to that set of norms called In the best interests of the child.
    Feminists sought to obfuscate, conceal, distract: and, rather than reading some people just accepted, Wallerstein has been exposed, MacKinnon de Beaux.. lesbian communists who must it seems have much in common with the "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual Group.
    Now we call sex "gender" in studies to obfusctae the fact that people who have sex with people of the same sex are homosexual, the use of gender is intentional obfuscation to political purpose.
    Fathers for decades have sought to reveal the truth, as have those who are aware that power and control with in a relationship has two sides not one. With gains made Lesbains, feminists, transexuals, bisexuals, and with that list of deviants we might as well include predators which to steal fathers efforts and usurp them for their own.
    Familes are supposed to be a special protected place to engage in the work of raising young human beings, there is no good reason to reduce families into equality..
    ...it has been said some see problems as nothing they can not lick, and well versed in dressing up in costume, they can play many parts: effective Fathers they are NOT

  5. #5
    Lady Catherine's Avatar
    Lady Catherine is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - equality or tolerance?

    "Should gays be allowed to adopt while normal hetrosexual couples are denied this right and fathers are denied to see their kids"?
    I am not wanting to give LGBT people preferential rights.

    1/You say there is no evidence that same-sex families are detrimental to kids. Is there evidence that they are good for kids? No, just someone one day decided to allow gays to have kids "and lets see what happens" - sounds like a social experiment to me.
    I said that there is no evidence either way, but I am not for or against the idea.

    2/Read about the history of Freud and psychology in the USA and tell me that psychology in the USA is not about social control and social engineering
    That documentary was about how politicians and corporations use his theories to sell their politics/product/whatever that does not equate to psychology(as a science) being a form of social control, it is merely being applied and used.

    3/I quote you above, if psycholgists REALLY believe that the family is the core unit, then why are fathers denied the right to see their children after/during divorce? How many psycholgists stand up in court and say what the courts are doing is wrong, or denounce the mothers?
    This is a social issue and not a psychological issue. Period. The perception of men is piss poor, and that has no bearing on sexual orientation or gender identity. If men are seen as poor parents, then they are going to get the shaft in court. This is not the fault of psychologists but rather the judges who make these decisions in family court.
    and by the looks of the amount of time you spend here, have few clients
    I have 6 clients that I see with any regularity, as is the case in the field and Percywinkles will agree, most people you see, you will only meet with once or twice.
    You do a lot of talking here, but saying little of value, as a psychologist.
    I have argued in several threads using my professional opinion as a psychologist. . I have argued in other threads with my political opinions, and in others I merely talk about what interests me(things like in the entertainment subforums or religion forum). I do not think like a psychologist 24/7, I am an expecting mother, lover of music, humor, and movies, gythia of the Norse, and Dominant wife.

    you shout non stop about minority rights
    This is horseshit and hyperbole. Only one of the last 4 or 5 threads I started had anything to do with LGBT rights the other 3 or 4 had to do with the sites actual topic, misandry.

    I find your posts colourful and entertaining
    Which is sort of the point.

    than informative
    Some of my recent threads have been more for getting a laugh out of people(except my mail rant, I was genuinely angry when I typed that), but my other ones are supposed to be informative and related to the site's purpose.

    But then again, I am not worried. Genetic engineering is advancing so quickly that I guess soon lesbians and gays could be deleted from history - given the "choice" will future parents refuse their right to delete a gay gene? The choice for future parents will be easy. Your post is a mere echo from the past.
    This is assuming it's genetic, I am not so sure myself. I am personally of the opinion that is a mix of nature and nurture and... I'm not so sure that it will be gotten rid of so easily.

    But since you want to criticize the quality of my posts, might I ask you why the last several posts you have referenced my religion you have making a shallow effort to try to equate me with Nazism? I have read what you said about me on Bob's blog, on the "is religion anti-feminist thread" and the "general guidelines of hate".
    The Bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie
    The Bagavad Gita did not fall from the sky
    These are the books that are written by men
    They've caused wars, now follow if you can

    First they created sin so they could win
    Then they built the cages they could put us in
    Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
    Then they took away the Earth and gave us hell -- Corporate Avenger - The Bible is Bullshit

  6. #6
    Richard's Avatar
    Richard is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - equality or tolerance?

    Quote Quote from Lady Catherine View Post
    This is a social issue and not a psychological issue. Period. The perception of men is piss poor, and that has no bearing on sexual orientation or gender identity. If men are seen as poor parents, then they are going to get the shaft in court. This is not the fault of psychologists but rather the judges who make these decisions in family court.
    That's rich coming from a psychologist. PERCEPTION and REALITY - it is the role of a court psychologist to sort that out so a court can make an informed decision !

    Again, you PROTECT psychologists - not one word of criticism - ah hetro men are at fault, not psychologists. Oops, what a pity this is an AM fourm - I dont think others support you.

    And there are plenty of studies as to how biased court psychologists are - again this reinforces my point that psychological is an ideological tool, do you refere to one of those studies - hell even the Stefan Batory foundation helps finance mens groups who do such studies, so they are not state secrets, but you ignore them. Lets have you views on the biased nature of court psychologists so men on this fourm have arguements they can go into court with, do a systematic report. Nope, your too busy wondering about gay adoption right. Hell, you certainly seem to know about studies of gays and adoption, but none on help decent hetro men fight in court.

    And how many psychologists stand up and say "this man was shafted in court" - I only know of one or two and they are older psychologists who have nothing to lose by being ostracised by their colleagues, and when I was in a public meeting and offered to help "name and shame" the psychologists, this was too much for them.

    I cannot and will not be sidetracked to worrying about gay adoption rights while my fellow men (and sometimes mothers/women) are shafted by the legal system and lies spread by feminism when fighting for rights to see their children. This is the PRIMARY battle - all else is secondary. Get REAL EQUAL PARENTING RIGHTS for fathers and the rest of the feminist ediface will begin to follow.

    Now if you are preapred to fight for these rights, great, if not, remain a comical minority with refugee status. Right now, I really wonder if TMOTS first impression of you was right.

    This is not a gay/LGBT rights activist forum. We can tolerate sexual minorities, but if they stand up and seek alliance with us, my reply is "join the queue behind the fathers fighting for justice - help the dads win justice - that is our primary goal".

    If Marx, or the admins want to open a LGBT slot then I would welcome that, it would give all refugees from feminism a good space and that way we could work an possible alliances, and all LGBT would be welcome at that slot and we could all dive in from time to time to work things out. Its a bloody hard and long road. I know, I've been there.

    Lady C, I was there in the 1980's, I've seen all this before. I was the one who said feminism has nothing to do with socialism - then the feminists were aligned with the British left. I was osracised - I went to eastern europe for a year (exile!) when I returned the feminists had jump ship and joined with the British right (conservatives), I was welcomed back a hero, then they left the conservative and whore around with anyone who is stupid to back them up, so I've served my time on the front line and I am battle hardened and know how alliances can be made and shift.

    PS on the nazi-religion issue, I was very careful with my wording I asked "which element was crucial" - I did not say you are a nazi, nor that Norse is nazi. The nazi's did adopt Norse religion as a state religion/ideology. You will be well to remember that a lot of bad energy is connected with it - think along Jung's collective unconscious - if you dance with the devil it will play with your soul. And, yes, I do have strong psychic abilities, but this is not the forum to discuss them, nor try to impress readers with them.
    The greatest enemy of the truth is very often not the deliberate lie - but the persistent, persuasive and unrealistic myth that the lie creates

  7. #7
    Lady Catherine's Avatar
    Lady Catherine is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - equality or tolerance?

    That's rich coming from a psychologist. PERCEPTION and REALITY - it is the role of a court psychologist to sort that out so a court can make an informed decision !
    Fair, but again different factors contribute to that, some of which have nothing to do with psychology. I am not super familiar with the court system, but I am under the impression that there are different social factors that lead to the perception of men being imcompetent fathers. I will accept that there are asses that are biased against fathers in the court system.

    Again, you PROTECT psychologists
    No, I merely gave an opinion based on my personal opinon and experiences. I haven't been a practicing psychologist for that long(only a few years), I am much more green so to speak than say... Percywinkles or Angry Harry.

    again this reinforces my point that psychological is an ideological tool,
    Again, psychology is a soft-science it is open to interpretation that others are not. I read several studies yesterday that my conclusions were wildly different than what the researchers found based on the data they gathered.

    And how many psychologists stand up and say "this man was shafted in court" - I only know of one or two and they are older psychologists who have nothing to lose by being ostracised by their colleagues, and when I was in a public meeting and offered to help "name and shame" the psychologists, this was too much for them.
    See above, and most of the psychologists I associate with are involved with research and therapy, and they are not involved with the court system. My personal pet topic is abuse, not father's rights, abuse consumes most of my activism, I have rants about the abuse industry and the lack of help offered to both hetero men and LGBT people, most of the research that I have done is involved in abuse-not father's rights or even LGBT parenting rights, it has been abuse.
    I cannot and will not be sidetracked to worrying about gay adoption rights while my fellow men (and sometimes mothers/women) are shafted by the legal system
    I am not asking you too drop everything and focus your waking moments to focus on issues that don't even affect you(or my husband and me, we are a hetero couple after all despite being LGBT ourselves). Heterosexism is an annoying sentiment but it's not the end of the world.

    This is the PRIMARY battle - all else is secondary. Get REAL EQUAL PARENTING RIGHTS for fathers
    I will disagree, but that's because I see abuse being a more serious topic.

    Now if you are preapred to fight for these rights, great,
    I am absolutely prepared to fight for these rights, but like I said abuse is a much more serious topic for me.

    If Marx, or the admins want to open a LGBT slot then I would welcome that, it would give all refugees from feminism a good space and that way we could work an possible alliances, and all LGBT would be welcome at that slot and we could all dive in from time to time to work things out. Its a bloody hard and long road. I know, I've been there.
    I have been tempted to start a topic solely about LGBT issues, if only for the fact that we do have several LGBT members on this board, dad_savage, hubby, Phil Henderson, Sylar, and myself come to mind but I am sure that we have more and that it would encourage more LGBT people to join our ranks, especially if we can be open minded enough to give their issues consideration
    The Bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie
    The Bagavad Gita did not fall from the sky
    These are the books that are written by men
    They've caused wars, now follow if you can

    First they created sin so they could win
    Then they built the cages they could put us in
    Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
    Then they took away the Earth and gave us hell -- Corporate Avenger - The Bible is Bullshit

  8. #8
    Richard's Avatar
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    Abuse being an issue, in what sense? Abuse of whom by whom?

    Indeed there are a few colourful members, and a LGBT slot on this forum could be a good idea as they could develop their idea's and possible bridges built into a broader alliance, but at the end of the day gay issues are gay issues and not hetro issues, but thats just my opinion.
    The greatest enemy of the truth is very often not the deliberate lie - but the persistent, persuasive and unrealistic myth that the lie creates

  9. #9
    Lady Catherine's Avatar
    Lady Catherine is offline Established Member
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    Abuse being an issue, in what sense? Abuse of whom by whom?
    Domestic abuse being a very serious issue for both men and LGBT people. Men are the targets of it at least as much as women and sexual orientation isn't a factor. I'm seriously surprised this isn't a bigger issue with you as well, being a fellow kinky person and all. The current issue is the Duluth model, only treats heterosexual women as victims and heterosexual men as aggressors, and it doesn't leave room for any men to be the targets and it doesn't leave any women to be the aggressors. I stress about it because I am both an ethical Domme and a wife of an ex-abuse victim, I know what abuse can do to people psychologically and it is not pretty. The main reason that I am over protective of my husband is because he has issues asserting himself. Sure, he looks big and mean but he packs no bite at all.

    but at the end of the day gay issues are gay issues and not hetro issues,
    Not really. LGBT men can still experience misandry and LGBT women can still experience misogyny, only a few of their issues are really mutually exclusive, most of them are perfectly valid concerns(abuse comes to mind).
    The Bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie
    The Bagavad Gita did not fall from the sky
    These are the books that are written by men
    They've caused wars, now follow if you can

    First they created sin so they could win
    Then they built the cages they could put us in
    Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
    Then they took away the Earth and gave us hell -- Corporate Avenger - The Bible is Bullshit

  10. #10
    Richard's Avatar
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    I have not heard one argument WHY LGBT should have equal rights – you cite not one study, no research. This is your private belief, based on what? A gut instinct? Is this not an attempt at social engineering? If not what is it? A liberation ideology to liberate LGBT? And what do I get out of it – my son to end up being told that gays are as good as hetro’s at school and I cannot object to him being taught this? Na, you will have to make us a better offer than that if you want us to accept gays as equal.

    So you say LGBT should have equal rights – why – I want everyone to have equal pay – is that ok? Equal gender rights and equal pay. But I want more, I want everyone to drive an equal car, live in equal homes, can I have that? Nope, and I want equal rights for my children to be taught that being gay is ‘tolerable’, but not quite right – can I have that equal right for my son to be taught this? No. Equal rights for sexual minorities, is as I said, a dangerous falicy and is not equal.

    Libertarianism is in total contradiction such beliefs – libertarianism is supposed to be getting the state OUT of our lives – a mini “return to nature”, if one demands rights for LGBT this implies the state must dive deeper into our lives. Be a trendy libertarian today, end up a Republican or Democrat tomorrow, wait and see. In the 1960’s one was a weatherman, a commie or whatever, and a few years down the road there cheer leaders for Clinton and Hilary.

    And why should gays and hetro’s join forces? What common fight do they have? I do not believe for a single second that any major/serious gay rights group would, at this point in time, campaign for hetro’s or fathers rights, nor do I see how we could make common cause with them.

    So what is this? A “grand scheme” to redraw gender? Right, so now we are back to social engineering, and if we are not we enter the realm of conspiracy theory – a conspiracy to change gender – it can even be a liberal conspiracy. What is a conspiracy? A movement with broadly accepted views, but without a written agenda and where the rules of the game are semi secret? So where are your plans leading towards, social engineering or conspiracy? Its easy to take the piss out of the poor souls who are lost in conspiracy theory on this forum, but not nice when it is applied to you. As a psychologist surely you should help these guys here, not laugh at them. Why are conspiracy theories so weird – engage the guys in debate and show them the error of their ways. Do you laugh at your patients in the same way? Maybe Norse is part of a conspiracy….

    I wonder what the hell NWO, conspiracy theories, or Norse have the hell to do with Mens Rights? I would certainly say that conspiracy theory is based on some kind of logic – what the hell is Norse based on – a faith? Which would I take my chances with – a semi-true account of reality or a faith? Hmm, hard choice, but wait there’s more

    On this group many others are trying to “sell” me another ideology to go along with men’s rights. “Buy into this one and you will be free”. Some are plying me with conspiracy theories (illumati, NWO), others, various ancient druid legal systems, and there’s always those who are ready to quote the bible as my salvation – and you say the gays will be my salvation !?! Christ, if that is my range of choices I think I might take my chances with NWO theorists who say the feminists are a conspiracy to destroy the family, as the family is a basic unit of society and the only thing that stands between us and the state – take away the family and the individual is powerless – just like ripping the shell off a turtle.

    But perhaps I will put some spin on arguments and claim men’s salvation lies in some obsecure dead ancient religion (norse?), or maybe join forces with the ecology movement, or something else that is trendy at the moment. Conspiracy theories were trendy yesterday, Norse or whatever is trendy today. Oh, how I love old wine in new bottles, but the Americans were always good are marketing, always got something to peddle or sell – look how they perveted Freud and adapted it as a mechanism of mass social control.

    Na, who knows maybe what you are doing is right. I know, I will follow your lead. I will go to the mythology books on my shelf, have a word with a student of Joesph Campbell, dig up an old religion, declare myself Big King Dick of the East, talk about sex non stop so as to stop guys stop thinking rationally, and win converts to my cause. Oh and I will think up an alliance with – hmm, let me think – as yes - asexuals – after all we have ignored that poor group. Asexuals and hetros united for equal rights! We can call it the “Aha”! movement and which show how good us men we are by encouraging asexuals to rediscover their sexuality.

    In the meantime I really am having trouble deciding which sounds more rediclous – the conspiracy theorists on this forum, or a queen bitch who believes in a norse religion, and who highlights its as though it will bring our liberation. I hope the admins on this forum might let me put it to a vote. After all, we’re all equal when it comes to a vote. (What the hell does norse have to do with curing feminist indoctrination, or have I missed something?).

    If I had my way, I would pack the lot of you off to the local psychiatric hospital to find out who is telling the truth (-:

    As I said, I find you entertaining, almost comical, and you said that was OK.

    Now, let me know where you are ready to be my slavegirl and I will give you a rest (-: Personally, I am just getting warmed up.

    Alliance with gays?

    I really don’t see how tying our cause with an umbillica cord with gay/LGTB issues will further our cause. I cannot see what demanding gay adoption rights and rights for hetro divorced fathers (and mothers I some cases) to see their children have in common, nor how twinning the issues will win public support.

    Earlier I said maybe psychologists are not part of the solution, maybe they are part of the problem. I should ask the same of the LGBT issue. Is it any accident that the more hetro men are losing their rights, the more LGBT are gaining theirs?

    Lets go back to the burning issue for the vast majority of men – not just on this forum, but MILLIONS of them, (perhaps 50% of the population soon, if divorce rates keep rising). And lets ask ourselves this. You say divorce courts see men badly – well, let me ask you, how the hell do courts AND PSYCHOLOGISTS see gays/LGTB? Oh, I see, mr hetro is the bad guy, and mr gay is the nice guy? And since when has mr gay been the nice guy? As you say, there is no research that shows gays make good or better parents. And it gets better! Most men on this forum – and especially our sexual minority refugees on this forum, note how intolerant
    and victim-like status gays eminate.

    Thus Lady C, as weird as it sounds, who knows, maybe our most extreme conspiracy theorists on this forum make some kind of sense on this forum. Indeed, even if they were half crazy, I can understand why they would be half crazy – it drives me nuts just to think of the social systems – nay, social engineering – in place to allow gays to have kids “with blessing”, while hetro dads cannot see their kids, and psychologists – like you – stand by and say – “its not our fault, it’s the judges. Well, that’s strange, as judges say they base their rulings on psychologists – thus each is trying to blame or hide behind the other. Perhaps you could write an article for us on this issue? Lets find the “guilty party”.

    When I think of a self-appointed queen, dressed in black, preaching S&M, with bats flying round her head, I really wonder – is THIS the woman that will liberate me? Nope, give me “ms average” for she will speak for the millions of women that make up society.

    And then there are wider social issues. Look at the huge social costs of divorce/single parents families. You shout about adopt right for gays – for me, father-son contact after divroce is the number one issue. Why? Well, ALL research shows that it is these kids who grow up delinquent – and if I have to put my energy into a cause, giving kids to gays, or ensuring that the MAJORITY of kids grow up in a semi-normal environment, which am I to choose? I will choose the latter, as the last thing I want is to walk down a street and have a delinquent kid put a guy in my face or a knife in my back.

    Nope, Missy, you’ve got to get your priorities right. Politically, my agenda is how to develop men/fathers rights so it can gain mass appeal and wake up society to what is happening. My propaganda tools maybe art, literature, rational writing, appeal to emotions, I am not sure yet, but when it bites, it will spread across society – gay adoption rights linked into this certainly wont. I potentially have more to lose than to gain by joining up with LGBT issues.

    And to se just how powerful father issues are – look at F4J – it took secret services to break up a handful of men that brought world attention to a cause – it is the secret of their success – and to carry their toruchlight forward that interests me. LGTB can line up behind me and be tolerated – and the great thing is that I don’t have to give them anything more than tolerance. After all, where can they go? Back to the feminist camp? Nope. They are our refugees now, we are not theirs. A minority does not dictate to the majority – unless you support a rule by oligarchy, or maybe LGBT are a new aristocracy born to rule us in your gothic queendom?

    And look what happened with men and feminism. We originally often backed the feminists (who bankrolled Ms magazine?), and rather than ensuring liberation of men and women, 30 years later we are sitting on AM forum discussing how enslaved we have become by them!

    Tolerance and minority rights is the best deal on the table, and if that’s not acceptable, then there is always rule by a majority, and tolerance is designed to moderate rule by a majority.

    There is no way the public will vote for gay adoption rights, etc. This is why – de facto – you are engaged in social engineering and behind the scenes manipulation, while hiding behind a façade of democracy and liberalism. Conspiracy theorists beat the alarm and you laugh at them. By exactly what mechanism, and WHO allowed gay adoption of children? I don’t remember being consulted in our democratic system about this. Sounds like all the hallmarks of a low-key conspiracy to me, or is this how our democracy works – and if so why?

    We have anti-discrimination laws in Britain – yet across my modest travels in this land over recent months I see signs declaring “no same-sex couples”. Imagine if the sign said “No Blacks” – what would happen – civil right protestors would mobilize. They are not mobilizing in the UK. I wonder why.

    Perhaps one way forward is a policy of “We march separately, but strike together” and form alliances on an issue by issue can and see what forces the LGTB an mobilize on a issue by issue.
    The greatest enemy of the truth is very often not the deliberate lie - but the persistent, persuasive and unrealistic myth that the lie creates

  11. #11
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    Hi folks... I just wanted to break the thread up a little with a short post... this is my short post... it's quite short... my poor eyes can't focus on such extremely lengthy lines of text... does anyone have a text-to-speech converter I can nab?
    The most offensive thing you can do to a feminist is treat her with FULL equality.
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    Quote Quote from Marx View Post
    Hi folks... I just wanted to break the thread up a little with a short post... this is my short post... it's quite short... my poor eyes can't focus on such extremely lengthy lines of text... does anyone have a text-to-speech converter I can nab?
    Oh, I donno Marx... Lenghty? Yes. Accurate, I rather think so.

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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    My eyes have been giving me a lot of gyp of late so focus on anything longer than a paragraph or two is a strain
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    That was a long...rant.
    I have not heard one argument WHY LGBT should have equal rights
    This is actually pretty close to my view on the matter of gay marriage. As for adoption, I really don't care either way.
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    Re: Gender politics - a policy of equality or tolerance?

    *sigh*

    This threads reminds me why I choose not to visit this board too often. Reading this stuff really hurts. Just look at this

    I have not heard one argument WHY LGBT should have equal rights
    What the fuck? I mean seriously? Let us play something akin to the "reverse the gender" game we use to expose misandry

    I have not heard one argument WHY niggers should have equal rights
    This would have been a valid thing to say some time ago....people, seriously, even Sacks is on the pro-gay side here. These are human rights issues at question here and people come up with "deviants" and personal opinion on how other people have to live their lives.....good god.
    The men's and fathers' movement needs to make sure it never sees females as the enemy,
    but only misandry--whether from females or from males.
    If not, we'll become like the bigoted feminists that this movement was formed to oppose.
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