I never knew Julie very much but it's sad to see any member being 'turned'. We would be wise to take it as a warning and reminder of the insidious nature of the feminism cult and its propaganda machine and of its superficial attractiveness to many young women.

We should also learn some other lessons from this event. I believe the primary lesson is that we have been too magnanimous in allowing feminists and manginas to have free rein on this site. Poison sometimes looks innocuous but it is poison and it spreads. If we have to let feminists in here then I believe they should at least be enclosed in a zone of their own, that way they can be monitored.

But also we should always remember that we are not in the business of woman-hate and some of us should cool it in that department or we will be seen as no better than man-hate feminism. I don't believe we should hate individual self-styled feminists either. If hate there be then it should be directed where it belongs, against the feminism cult itself.

In the 32 years that I have been actively fighting feminism, I've had a rare chance to see the way feminism and its followers have morphed over the years.

In the 1960s and 1970s, it was feminism at its rawest: man-hating, disgruntled, often divorced women, who truly did hate men. Sadly, they laid the groundwork for the ones to come. Many of them still hold those views, but they have learned that its not in their best interest to makle those views known, so they cover them up or pretend they no longer hold them. I have noticed a definite attempt by current feminists to distance themselves from the second wave feminists of the 1960s and 1970s, such as Betty Friedan.

They're actually more dangerous NOW, because they have learned to "play the game", so to speak, and clean their act up for PR reasons. Fortunately, those of us who remember them back when they were still too stupid to "act right", can call them on it and have the advantage of having known them back when they were their real selves.

Over the years, I've noticed that feminism generally attracted older women who were either: divorced, abused, had poor relationships with their fathers or brothers, and so on.

Today, younger women are drawn to it, I think, partly to seem "trendy" and so as not to be mocked by their peer group. This is why it is SO important that parents of daughters watch what KINDS of girls their daughters befriend. Children tend to be very sensitive to what their peers believe and do, and will do anything to avoid being on the out with them.

As I said in the "I Don't Fit" thread, I don't think she's defected. I think she sees her best opportunity at making a change is to work with the group in power, rather than fighting it.

If we convince them that we are not against women having equal rights, but only want equity for men as well, it could change things. This won't work for the radfems, of course, because they are about hate and revenge, but for the more moderate among them, it could.

For instance, if we stop talking about whether men or women have it worse in the domestic violence issue, but instead focus on the fact that dv is bad for everyone, the fair-minded among them will work with us instead of against us. It will take time to get them to hear what we're saying there, if it even happens at all, but it's a good strategy. They for sure won't hear us if we focus as we have been.

Julie is actually doing a very brave thing. She is going into the lion's den.

I disagree with the idea that dv is a bad thing..

I disagree that men have to compete with the women whine for whine..

I disagree with anything that is designed to create disharmony and slit up families by driving wedgies between men and women..

Will they accept her? Is it like being a double-agent?

Guys and girls, I am not leaving you.

My thread about going was seriously how I felt at the time. But seeing others don't fit anywhere other than with their own space they take up has changed my mind.

Kelly, thanx for seeing the way I feel. I am frustrated in what we are not doing. Do you know that I am only one of 4 people that are writing a submission for fathers in the FC in the whole country. I am sure there must be at least another 2 somewhere.

But that is shocking. Such an important thing and everyone thinks someone else will fix the problem. No dig intended at people because I have done the same all my life too. (until now)

Drex, anything we do to promote men's rights is a voice to the public. When the fathers protested outside lawyers homes the public awareness grew and it became not only discussion on every households breakfast table but the newspapers lapped it up because it is different and exciting and the TV showed a doco on it where the fathers blatantly put down the feminists as haters of men. Then a politician started speaking up and now changes are coming. More politicians are speaking up, more males are speaking up.

This is about awareness more than men's shelters or men's groups. When women hear that men are treated unfairly, they do take notice. When I first started reading sites I asked lots of people questions. I asked men around me if this was true. They couldn't understand that I didn't know. But how could I. They never told me.

Women don't hear what men don't say. Have you ever noticed how women are tunnel vision? How do you expect for them to see what is going on around them this way?

Most women find it impossible to see outside their own sphere. I do believe the term is looking outside your own bubble..

The very good example for all to see is the ongoing drive by women against breast cancer, ignoring all other cancers as well as prostate cancer (this kills as many men) for argument sake. Hundreds of millions of dollars is handed out every year to this cause yet there they are every year doing the same thing. Totally ignoring all else as it's something that they can directly relate to.

Everything else is ignored. Self focussing tunnel vision is correct.

That's it exactly.

You guys know that I've put unpopular thoughts out there on my blog, and I've asked pointed questions on feminist blogs. You also know I've been publicly ridiculed. I've even had whole blog posts aimed at me, with the attendant snide remarks in the comments. I've had the shrink ask me more than once why I fight so hard for this cause, and whether it could have to do with my abuse. It doesn't. I do what I do because my sense of right and wrong is seriously offended by what I see every day.

But you know what? Before I stumbled into Nice Guy's site last year, I didn't know what was going on. Some things, yes. Like Affirmative Action and such. But I really had no idea, even though it was all around me.

I don't know if it's because of a difference between men's and women's perceptions, or if it's because the discriminatory stuff was never aimed at me. I suspect it's a little of both. But I honestly never put it together.

And I'm really pretty open-minded. Once the evidence was presented to me, it was abundantly clear that I had made some serious errors in judgement, and that I had deeply internalized many feminist ideas. I bought what they sold me, in other words.

This is why I'm going to experiment with changing my approach. You all know Wendy McElroy calls herself a feminist, but she is fairly even-handed in her writing. And people listen to her. Many feminists are enraged that she has the nerve to count herself among them. How many times has an article from ifeminists been posted here, and how many of you agreed with her?

I'm convinced that this is an approach that will work. I'm sure some people will hate me for it. Some people hate me now. Men don't trust me, women think I'm a traitor. So be it. I'm aiming at the moderates. They are the majority.

No doubt you are speaking the truth.
Most women don't even seem concerned with anything that effects men.
Why many women don't even mind that they have sons and that these things will effect them some time in their lives. Shame!

`

Good stuff KM.

Psychology is so focused on the subjective. I've had a couple of therapists, and they never acknowledged issues like justice or truth, it's always about "how do you feel?" and "why did you hate your mother?"

Wendy McElroy is a moderate, and her kind is not welcomed by gender feminists (or male chauvinists I suspect). It seems like every generation has a variation on this conflict between extremists and realists.

Kelly, it is sooo, sooo nice to share this journey with another female.

But you should take a few tips from me because accidentally I have been doing the right thing and some important top dog women are helping me. OMG, they are giving me money. You are a rare breed yourself in this.

First tip ... you can't go in this anti feminist. The doors will shut fast in your face. I have been told this from other women high up. This is because you will be moving up in the scene and feminism has still not been challenged properly. This is still new ground. Many women in charge of things are aware that women's rights have given them their positions so they do not go against what the feminists have done although it was not exactly the feminists who gave it to them. It was the mass of women's support. You can slowly teach them the facts of feminisms future expectations as you go along and past history.

Second tip ... don't go in as a feminist. You are a traitor then and you will be treated as such. Go in for men's rights. That way you are no threat for you are for humanity. Men's rights are human rights. Feminists don't mind other groups. They are for all of humanity and men are a part of that. The majority of feminists are not man haters. The are merely pro the work that they do. (think tunnel vision which means you don't take their tunnel away but merely work along side them)

Third tip ... ask questions. Always ask questions. Turn everything into a question for then it is them who come to the conclusion themselves and they own it. Basics of human nature. Make sure you show people they are valued. We lack this so much in life today that it is a sought after commodity. Do not tell people what is what. When you write to politicians and other important people who have worked extremely hard to get where they are NEVER put them down. They consider themsleves experts in their chosen field. Best to act less than them. That way they are not threatened. Ask them what they think of men's position on certain areas. They will give their view. (if it is man hate, don't run, because you can build on it) Add to it. But what about this research? They will then give you an answer. Often they throw their own research but you can counter act that with more research and questioning. But what about this one. And what about this and what about that? Or say things like. "We found this and are concerned. What do you think about this?"

Then slyly get their e-mail address and make friendship. (OK, not exactly friends) Tell them that you want to keep in touch and that you want to share some of what you are learning. So then you can give them up to date research. Make them feel valued. Because truth is they are.

Believe me being a female in this makes a huge, massive difference.