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On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

This is a discussion on On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered. within the Men's Health forums, part of the Men's talk category; Hi there. I wish to make a long-awaited update to my blog with an article concerning gender identity. Even though ...


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  #1  
Old 26th-June-2007
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On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

Hi there. I wish to make a long-awaited update to my blog with an article concerning gender identity.
Even though this may at first seem like a gender reassignment issue, the fact that it involves a mainly male-to-female identity subject I feel is worthy of specific discussion on this site.

I also would like the views of pro-feminists as well (all views greatly received).

The article I want to write about is those who are genetically born as one gender, but for some reason assume they should have been born the other. The typical statement is that a genetically born male will say that he feels that he was born in the wrong body and, based on some criteria, thinks that he identifies more with the female gender.
Most that identify as TG are predominantly male with only rare numbers making up that of female.

A related subject matter is crossdressers. This is what is now more known today as “fetish crossdressing” as it mainly serves a sexual purpose rather than an identity issue. On the face of it, it may seem like there are no female crossdressers, but in fact there are just as many if not more. If we take the fact that crossdressing is about donning feminine attire then, by definition, women who wear masculine attire are also technically crossdressers as well (shirts, jackets, trousers etc) with one noticeable difference: women don’t dress this way to fulfil any particular sexual purpose but do dress more androgynous for business purposes i.e. “power dressing” so therefore there is a lack of sexualisation of this identity.

But if I can go back specifically to transgenderism, how is it possible for someone to assume they know what it’s like to be born in the wrong body? After all, if I ask the men in this forum what it feels like to be a man then I’m sure the responses will be more about offering stereotypical masculine traits. Is it not actually impossible to know what it’s like to be anything other than you so that the only possible answer anyone can give is what it feels like to be you as the individual?
I don’t feel an overwhelming surge of masculinity when wearing jeans and a t-shirt, so I’m pretty confident that clothes do not make the man or woman. But most transgendered folk continuously concentrate on feminine imagery and brazenly make claims that they are male on the outside but female on the inside. But if they concentrate on feminine imagery then surely the claim that they have a female brain is false i.e we men are more visual than women, so doesn’t this prove in some way that they do in fact possess a male brain and are only responding to visual stimuli in a typical masculine fashion?
Similarly, no one has ever come forward and made a claim that they were born as the wrong species (martian, goat, cat, dog, etc) and requested species reassignment surgery, so how is it possible that anyone can assume they were born the wrong gender?

To me it all seems very suspect, but playing devil’s advocate with my own thoughts here, knowing that I am in fact born into my correct identity, surely this would mean that I couldn’t possibly comprehend what it’s like to be born in the wrong body so therefore would not be able to possess the state of conscious of those who make this claim?

Many (myself included) have made the standpoint that even if a person goes ahead and has gender reassignment surgery the person would still biology be male because of the chromosomes in their genetic makeup regardless what equipment they possess and would still possess the same thoughts and feelings regardless of physically altered sex organs. So could this be seen as unnecessary surgery?
A similar analogy can be made that if I had some sort of psychological dysfunction because of the physical existence of my left arm then it’s almost positive that having it removed (even though it’s perfectly functional and not causing me any physical problems/discomfort) will help resolve those psychological problems due to it physically being there. So is this more about dysmorphia in that the problems are mainly “in the head” (so to speak)?


 
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  #2  
Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

There are people born with different-from-the-norm chromosomes. The XXYs and the XYYs. There are other people who in the first trimester get an inadequate or excessive testosterone wash. Their brains and sometimes sexual organs are affected.

Life does not have a perfect reproductive system, nor record. There are 'sports'. There are variations. Most people fall within a 'normal' range of body and commonly associated body sense. Others don't.

There are mild men and assertive ones. There are shy, feminine women and bold, outgoing, adventurous ones. All normal.

There is no need to ostracise anyone. Neither is there a need to glorify one peculiarity or difference or another.

If a chap feels he is a woman inside, or a woman feels she is really a chap, then it is best to listen to them rather than simply dismiss them. If s/he wants to wear a dress and lippy, that's his/her business. Same with a pair of jeans and a tie. There is no need to defend or elevate him/her. Just accept. There should be no need for laws or 'education' or special programs, nor punitive reegimes for people who stop and stare. That's fairly normal too.

If she gets her jollies by dressing in a lacy bra and fancy knickers, fine. If he gets jollies wearing them too then that's fine as well. If she feels 'confident and powerful' wearing a suit and brogues, then jolly good, I say. Let her wear Y-fronts if she wishes. If he feels well presented and competent in his suit, or secretly sensual wearing silk knickers under his trousers, than that's fine too. What turns this person or that person on is only the business of the person and whoever they are in a relationship with.

If someone is so uncomfortable with the body that they came with, then why force them to keep it that way or decry them if they want to change it. If modern surgery can enable a person to achieve a better level of comfort with themselves, then why not have the surgery. It's not my business.

There are always some folk who are attention getters. There are always some folk who are confused about anything and everything including whether to sit or stand to pee. But these are even fewer than the others who differ from the norm.

Quote:
Many (myself included) have made the standpoint that even if a person goes ahead and has gender reassignment surgery the person would still biology be male because of the chromosomes in their genetic makeup regardless what equipment they possess and would still possess the same thoughts and feelings regardless of physically altered sex organs.
So? Does it matter what standpoint you make? The issue is 'Is it true'? What 'biology' would a XXY be, Or a XYY? How do you know what their thoughts or feelings would be after a change? Is it any concern of yours? Presumably they think it is worth finding out and hope that their discomfort will abate when they get surgery. Some do report that. Some are disappointed. Are we to simply disbelieve them?

I ask this ignorant of you as a person. Are you transgendered? Do you have some personal experience that sheds light, even if it is only ideographic information rather than nomothetic.


 
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  #3  
Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

i thought your post was really good percy..

Quote:
I don’t feel an overwhelming surge of masculinity when wearing jeans and a t-shirt, so I’m pretty confident that clothes do not make the man or woman.
clothes themselves dont make men or women, but its the gender identity that goes with them. if clothes dont mean anything to you kurt, then why dont you go around wearing a skirt?


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  #4  
Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
There are people born with different-from-the-norm chromosomes. The XXYs and the XYYs. There are other people who in the first trimester get an inadequate or excessive testosterone wash. Their brains and sometimes sexual organs are affected.

Life does not have a perfect reproductive system, nor record. There are 'sports'. There are variations. Most people fall within a 'normal' range of body and commonly associated body sense. Others don't.

There are mild men and assertive ones. There are shy, feminine women and bold, outgoing, adventurous ones. All normal.

There is no need to ostracise anyone. Neither is there a need to glorify one peculiarity or difference or another.
Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
If a chap feels he is a woman inside, or a woman feels she is really a chap, then it is best to listen to them rather than simply dismiss them.
Which I haven't done. Maybe you missed the point about my questions being hypothetical? And no, you're wrong. It's not always best to listen to the people who consider themselves to be transgendered more so than anyone else who isn't that way. The probability of biased viewpoints from their POV is quite high. Especially seeing as they have identity issues in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
If someone is so uncomfortable with the body that they came with, then why force them to keep it that way or decry them if they want to change it.
The point being that no one is forcing anyone to do anything against their will and nowhere did I state that this should be so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
If modern surgery can enable a person to achieve a better level of comfort with themselves, then why not have the surgery.
In some circumstances surgery may seem the right choice at the time, but I doubt it's a responsible thing for people to assume it's the only choice all the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
How do you know what their thoughts or feelings would be after a change?
Their own testimony. They didn't change much at all, only certain biological/hormonal functions. They still felt and thought the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
Is it any concern of yours?
The discussion is not about whether it's a "concern" but it is a subject which fascinates me. Why shouldn't I feel fascinated by things that I deem to pique my curiosity? Or do you think that I or anyone else should accept blindly things that may seem at first to be easily misconstrued without the proper information? That's the whole reason for the existence of this thread as well as to get opinions from genetically born males to put their thoughts forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
Presumably they think it is worth finding out and hope that their discomfort will abate when they get surgery.
Are you implying (with your use of the term "presumably") that surgery of this magnitude is done so on blind faith that it will have positive consequences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
Some do report that. Some are disappointed. Are we to simply disbelieve them?
Not necessarily disbelieve, but it does highlight that medical professionals also do not know whether surgery would also be the better option if there are as many disappointing outcomes as there are successful ones. Do they prescribe surgery also on blind faith that it will help? Similarly, is abortive surgery always the way if a woman thinks she can't look after a child? Now we know that abortion is not always the better choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
Are you transgendered?
Do I need to be to ask opinions of others on this subject matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy View Post
Do you have some personal experience that sheds light, even if it is only ideographic information rather than nomothetic.
I haven't had personal experience in surgically having my gender changed, but I have read accounts of those who have assumed they were born in the wrong body, have had reassignment surgery only to find out later that it was the wrong choice.
Was the medical professional in a situation like that qualified enough to make an informed decision to put a person through surgery not actually knowing for sure whether it would do any good? It doesn't seem so to me. And yet, if I stayed strictly to asking only transgendered/pre-transgendered folk then I'm bound to get only biased opinions...which, curiously enough, I have been on TG forums.


I don't subscribe to the notion that everyone should simply accept anything. Now THAT would be ignorance. Why not question things?


 
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Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruit_Cake View Post
if clothes dont mean anything to you kurt, then why dont you go around wearing a skirt?

What makes you think I don't?


 
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Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

Percy once again my friend I find myself in total agreement with you. If a person feels they have been born into the wrong body who am I to discourage them from getting the surgury. They should do what they think is right for them after they get all the info weigh it with a mind towards what is ups and downs of having it done. If the measure comes up that they should get the surgury then they should do it. I can't say I understand why they are confused about their gender as I have never felt that confusion but my lack of understanding shouldn't mean that it is wrong for another human being from being in that situation. Kurtis that was a good post even though I disagreed with parts it is a good thing that you put your self out there an stated your veiws instead of being all PC.


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Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

I changed my sex recently..

I used to have it with dogs, I am moving on to sheep now..


 
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Old 26th-June-2007
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier View Post
Kurtis ... even though I disagreed with parts it is a good thing that you put your self out there an stated your veiws instead of being all PC.
Thank you. What I posted is not something that I believe in as gospel otherwise it would have much more detail instead of intentionally vague generalisations and I'd simply make conclusions for myself and not post this for the purpose for discussion.
Another point is the PC angle. I'm simply not interested in it.


 
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Re: On Gender Identity Crisis - genetic males/crossdressers/transgendered.

Its all bollocks..

I think much of it is due to gender stereotyping, which has got far worse under feminism..

Not only do we have gender stereotyping, we have sexual orientation stereotyping..

No surprises that some folk may wish to change themselves to fit in with the preferred stereotype they want to be..

I think that until one can say "I am what I am" then indeed, they will never be satisfied..

I could not give two shakes of badger bristle shaving brush what other folk do or what they think they are.. As long as it does not effect me too adverserly!

Its up to them..

But I would say if "I am what I am" means you are unhappy and that non-essential surgery is the answer to your problems.. Then I would say you are a fucked up member of a fucked up society..

I am sure that the vast majority of folk can find others who accept them and would be able to get along with them without the need for extreme actions..

I have read articles that state, in reality, there is no such thing as the "either or" gender split..

There are definately a number of cases of men who are genetically male who look and are to all intents and purposes fully female..

They are registered female and dont find out that they are male till investigations later discover that they are XY, but the signal to convert them into males during pregnancy was blocked and they remained and developed into females, though internally they can reproduce..

Apparently, 1/4 of females have a pretty much masculine brain..

No doubt these women are in the higher echelons of the feminazi anti-male movement!

They are free to seek to control the women and use them as their sexual resource!

The classic demands of the feminazis is that they want a nice femized man with feminine features to raise their kids with..

Kids that are actually sired by such men are of course routinely aborted..

They first need to be "raped" by other type of man that they hate so much, then they go bleating to the femiboys...

Seems that men have hard problem knowing what they really are, women have a hard problem knowing what they really want!


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