Quote from RebelliousVanilla

Out of all the Nobel prize winners, excluding Nobels for peace, there are only 3 Muslim Nobel Prize winners. There are over 100 Jewish Nobel Prize winners, even though there are a lot less Jews, unlike the 20% of the world population, which is Muslim. So, the two cultures are equal?

Nobel Prizes are a western concept. How many non-muslims get muslim awards for excellence?

Ever since European influence left Africa, people there started to live worse and most of the countries were unable to have a proper sound government. Is tribalism equal to European culture? If so, prove it.

Who ever said they're fuking equal? Are you even READING what I am saying?

I NEVER said that cultures are equal. What I am however saying is that no one culture is the "right" culture. It depends on what criteria you choose to judge cultures.

Is having technological progress more important than having regular sex? One culture has more of one than the other culture. One values one more than the other.

Is feeling happy more important than improving the economy? By tibetan values, a person contributes to society by meditating and spirituality, by american values he does this by working his ass off, even if it kills him.

And the cheerleader statement was a metaphor and you should have picked up on it. What CD did is the same as feminists do: suppose stuff about things they have no idea about, to excuse and justify the behavior of their peers or a claim they have.

5 POSTS AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T ACTUALLY QUOTED OR PROVIDED PROOF OF CelticDruid doing this.

WHERE did he do this? Give me the exact paragraph where CD is doing this? You have written half a book trying to dodge doing that.

Alek, it is not my intent to impose anything on you, 'Patriarchal' (lovely feminist blaming word) or otherwise. What a waste of my valuable effort that would be.

I have pointed out elsewhere that anyone of ill-will can take a virtue and turn it into a vice, (as in the way you choose to view Loyalty) and if you want to make that your life's task, then so be it. I shall cross the road when I see you, or confront you with the responsibility for your own disasters. You have certainly shown what sort of person you are.

I prefer far better examples of what a man is.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

And if you want to see someone justify dishonesty, in this case you have CD.

Not wanting to become too embroiled in the debate here, but my point was: that a man shouldn't be obligated to adhere to an outdated idea that, as a man he must uphold whatever promise he might of made to a woman irregardless of outcome to himself. Yet the same isn't true of women.

If the woman has given birth to a child of his I've no problem with expecting him to support it, but he's not obligated to marry her, nor should she be compensated because he's CHOSEN not to do so.

Firstly RV, what is the dishonesty you speak of, and where is the justification?

Quote from Percy

Alek, it is not my intent to impose anything on you, 'Patriarchal' (lovely feminist blaming word) or otherwise. What a waste of my valuable effort that would be.

I have pointed out elsewhere that anyone of ill-will can take a virtue and turn it into a vice, (as in the way you choose to view Loyalty) and if you want to make that your life's task, then so be it. I shall cross the road when I see you, or confront you with the responsibility for your own disasters. You have certainly shown what sort of person you are.

I prefer far better examples of what a man is.

More patriarchal shaming. Lol. Get over it, you're a dying breed, just like feminists.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

And honour isn't a patriarchal design. Honour is just having ethics and respecting other people, which IS part of integrity.

Really. Have you actually looked up what the word means for women?

By every dictionary or encyclopedia in existence, honour for women means "Staying a virgin until you get married".

Tell me you still approve of the construct "honor". The same people who invented this term "honor" claim you have NONE if you have sex outside of marriage, and that one isn't disputed.

The tricky part is that for men, they made it a bit more complex, so its easy for them to defend it by trying to tie into actual good things like "honesty", and trying to BS their way in keeping it alive.

But with women, its really simple to prove how BS it is. Do you actually believe a woman is unable of having integrity in any other way except staying a virgin? Really!?!? Because that's what the word means, look it up.

Honor is nothing more than a shaming construct designed to promote monogamy/patriarchy.

Quote from Celtic Druid

Not wanting to become to embroiled in the debate here, but my point was: that a man shouldn't be obligated to adhere to an outdated idea that, as a man he must uphold whatever promise he might of made to a woman irregardless of outcome to himself. Yet the same isn't true of women.

If the woman has given birth to a child of his I've no problem with expecting him to support it, but he's not obligated to marry her, nor should she be compensated because he's CHOSEN not to do so.

Firstly RV, what is the dishonesty you speak of, and where is the justification?

Someone breaking their promise is dishonesty. Making certain suppositions to justify a behaviour isn't something I look up to and it is a tool that is used by feminists that I despise.

Sure, he isn't obligated to keep his promise, but that won't make me support the break of his promise, like I don't support women who withhold sex in a marriage as a bargaining chip. She isn't respecting her promise that she made when she got married, just like this guy didn't respect his promise.

And again, I said that I don't think she should be compensated or that he should be forced to marry her. But I won't justify dishonesty - neither from a woman nor from a man.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/honour
Hmm.

Nobel prizes are given for scientific discoveries, it isn't a Western concept. It's nothing relative about it, just like a dude running 100m in a certain time isn't relative.

And by implying that no culture is better than another, you imply that they are equal. Sustaining something else means subtracting yourself from logic.

And you can judge values by their outcome, which is the society's success.

Quote from Celtic Druid

This woman is displaying an arrogant sense of entitlement because at some point she manipulated him into promising to marry her (what sane man agrees to marriage without undue influence by the woman?).

I believe that's justifying breaking one's promises.

And by the way, it wouldn't hurt if you wouldn't be obnoxious or condescending.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

Someone breaking their promise is dishonesty.

Then were all guilty of that to lesser or greater degrees, both men and women.

But, I'd reiterate what I said regarding how a man breaking a promise is seen as a FAR greater sin than a woman doing so.

Of course, in the case of this woman who was looking forward to the footballers riches, his breaking a promise was the ultimate sin to her, but possibly a wise decision by him in the long run.

Making certain suppositions to justify a behaviour isn't something I look up to and it is a tool that is used by feminists that I despise.

Most people justify their behaviours to various degrees, and others such as not wanting to commit to marriage have very valid reasons in not doing so.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/honour
Hmm.

Lol, you actually wasted 20 minutes to find a dictionary that doesn't have the patriarchal concept. (it calls female virginity an old definition, lol) Congratulations on the persistence

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honor
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/honor
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/honor

honor (uncountable)
(US) An objectification of praiseworthiness, respect. (I.e., something that represents praiseworthiness, respect.)

What your culture praises... For example promising to marry a woman, no matter what You'll see that:

1) all major sources list chastity/virginity/sexual purity
2) They mainly point out societal respect and status

Nobel prizes are given for scientific discoveries, it isn't a Western concept. It's nothing relative about it, just like a dude running 100m in a certain time isn't relative.

Actually it is a western concept. Tibetans don't give a fuk about scientific discoveries. Technological progress is simply unimportant to them.

Me personally? I LOVE and respect science and nobel-prize winners. I just don't have the ARROGANCE to claim everyone should have my personal values.

And by implying that no culture is better than another, you imply that they are equal. Sustaining something else means subtracting yourself from logic.

HAHAHHAHAH!H!H!HHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

I am implying they all have their own benefits, their pros and cons. We only know what culture is better looking back from the future. They all play a certain role in the advance of humanity. They all have important roles.

Here's the point. If there was just ONE universal culture on the entire planet, the planet would collapse real fast, as its the combinations of the eternal dance and competition of the different cultures that moves humanity forward.

And you can judge values by their outcome, which is the society's success.

I believe that's justifying breaking one's promises.

Yes it is. If I promise to you that I'll buy your mercedes today (and its brand spanking new)... If i come by your place tomorrow, and the mercedes is all screwed up, beaten down, scratched and ruined...

I use that as my "excuse" for breaking my "promise"

CelticDruid's point is SIMPLE: Currently society forces men to be unflexible. To have to marry a woman no matter how the conditions change.

Women are ALLOWED to change their mind.
Men aren't.

SIMPLE.

Originally Posted by Celtic Druid
This woman is displaying an arrogant sense of entitlement because at some point she manipulated him into promising to marry her (what sane man agrees to marriage without undue influence by the woman?).

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

I believe that's justifying breaking one's promises.

But doesn't that 'justifying' have a very solid and proven reason for not commiting to marriage (keeping in context with the thread story), given how it's so detrimental to men (I'm factoring in the inevitable divorce that follows)? Why must a man promise to be a lemming?

By every dictionary or encyclopedia in existence, honour for women means "Staying a virgin until you get married". AlekNovy

hahahahaha. And you accuse me of 'semantics'. Hahahahaha

Mine (Shorter Oxford) mentions 'chastity' but not virginity.

Non-virgin ladies can be chaste.

I wrote honour definition on google and that's the first one that came up.

Quote from Percy

hahahahaha. And you accuse me of 'semantics'. Hahahahaha

Mine (Shorter Oxford) mentions 'chastity' but not virginity.

Non-virgin ladies can be chaste.

chaste

  /tʃeɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [cheyst] Show IPA Use chaste in a Sentence

See web results for chaste

See images of chaste

–adjective, chast⋅er, chast⋅est. 1. refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion; virtuous. 2. virgin. 3. not engaging in sexual relations; celibate.

So ya, maybe it can be taken as only prefering virginity, but at least having sex rarely, and only with serious people. The point remains. Honour is a term invented to opress both men and women. Its a concept that opresses women's sexuality and imposes sexist obligations onto men... by guilt-tripping them into linking sexist bullshit with actual virtues (integrity and such).

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

I wrote honour definition on google and that's the first one that came up.

The point remains. Do you have such an ego-trip that you can't admit being wrong, lol.

You were defending a term that defines you as having no integrity unless you're a virgin or some other form of limited sexuality. Instead of going "oh wait, I learned something new, maybe honor isn't such a great concept"... You're trying to hold on to being right.

Integrity is INTEGRITY. Its a separate concept.
Honor is an invention trying to guilt-trip you into following certain church rules by linking POSITIVE things (integrity) with stuff they invented (such as being a virgin till marriage etc).

You need to untangle the two. You can have integrity without honor. You can't have honor without integrity. Do you finally get it?