If there is a chance that both may live, then there is no reason whatsoever to abort. I know that if it was me, I'd tell the doctor to do everything possible to save my baby and consequences on my body be damned.

If it's a situation where the mother can make it to the 8th (or sometimes even 7th) month, then she should carry the baby to that point as well. With a developed country's current medical developments, both mother and child would hopefully survive.

And of course, if it is a positively healthy and robust child, and the abortion would only be done because of the "inconvenience" to the mother...then no. If she was dumb enough to not be on the Pill or insist that her lover wear a condom, then she needs to take responsiblity for her lack of foresight. In the very rare case of a rape victim getting pregnant, there is always the morning after pill, which works in 92% of all cases. If it doesn't, she can have the choice to carry, or have the cell cluster removed in the first month. Since the heartbeat starts at week 8 and brainwaves start at week 17, it should be performed WELL before either of these dates.

Again, the only time I'd say that an abortion should be performed is if it would 100% without a doubt kill the mother, or if the child is horribly deformed or diseased. If amniocentesis/ultrasounds shows that the child will be born say, with severe spina bifida, or as a janus twin or with "cry of the cat" syndrome...then to me that would be a true mercy killing.

Even the things I just mentioned are not the most devastating of problems though, which is why I could never say "eliminate ALL abortions without knowing the situation". I'd prefer if a woman wasn't forced to carry an infant who will die after only 4 days out of the womb...not only is it a biological waste of energy, but why make the father and mother suffer that way?

To me, that is the height of emotional cruelty. It is the rare instances like these that would make me say, "yes, let them abort".

You seem to have done a good deal of research on this. Wouldn't it show more love for her child if she kept it even if the child has defects or was a product of rape?
The new life begins at the time of conception.

How about, don't get pregnant.

Quote from FloatyBoaty

You seem to have done a good deal of research on this. Wouldn't it show more love for her child if she kept it even if the child has defects or was a product of rape?
The new life begins at the time of conception.

In certain cases, yes. I have nothing but the highest regard for someone who keeps a child that is a product of rape. I think it shows amazing love, diligence and patience, even if she gives it up for adoption later. For the rare times this occurs, these women are wonderful.

But I can also see it as a punishment given to the wrong person. Imagine that someone had raped you, and you got pregnant (yes, I know you're a man-this is very hypothetical). You are now going to have sore, enlarged breasts, leaking nipples, you'll throw up, have severe weight gain, and mood swings. You will have to urinate more, have nausea many mornings, strange cravings, sweats, chills, stretched skin, swelling of your ankles and thighs, and will have to use your money to buy many different sizes of clothes as your baby develops.

You will wake up every morning and lie down every night for 260 consecutive days with the knowledge that you were raped, and that half the genetic material of your rapist is literally living inside you. I would never, ever blame someone for NOT wanting to live through this.

As for defects, yes...there are some that are "fine". Your child has Down's...many do and have happy lives. Your child will only have one arm...we have many improving technologies which may give them an arm later. Your child will be born blind...there are a great many surgeries which may correct it, or they will simply learn Braille and have a different lifestyle. All of these are fairly common and are easy to find schools, doctors or support groups for.

They are NOT what I'm talking about. There are defects that would make your hair stand on end, and have you wondering what on this green earth could have ever caused them. Babies can be born without cerebrums or spines. They can be born without stretchable skin, without a mouth, without genitals. They can have extra limbs, eyes, organs that developed outside their bodies, or tumors that litter their poor faces. All of these are horrible and all of these are true.

I have done a great deal of "research" on this, if you can call it that. The truth is I used to babysit when I was younger, and one of my best clients was a 'Special Cases' OB/GYN. She had shelves upon shelves of wonderful medical literature in her home, which I'd read after the kids were asleep. (I didn't like to watch TV while babysitting...makes it hard to listen for a cranky or sick child). Most of her books were of normal types of things; good health, nutrition, men-specific health, woman-specific health, diets, exercise models, updates on medical technologies.

Like most books, I utterly devoured them...I've always LOVED reading and learning, so long as it's not related to any math higher than PreCalc
After going through the normal literature, I began to get the stuff down from the top shelves. They contained a wealth of knowledge, some of which is scary (like what I've written here), and some was more practical, like what the weekly stages of a fetus are, or how to have sex when you're pregnant, or what vitamins can enhance sperm mobility or women's bloodflow. They were kept up high for very definite reasons...

Lastly, I know that LIFE begins at conception, but it is only cellular life. Until it is more than a group of cells that have more life than what I grew in a 9th grade petri dish, they are not a human. If we claim that death is the cessation of a heartbeat, how can we claim something is alive if it has yet to even GROW a heart.

I'm sorry if any of what I've written sounds too cold or overly scientific. I'm not trying to have it come across that way, honestly. If you're beliefs are that humanity=when egg meets sperm, that is your prerogative. As before, I don't agree, but I respect you for holding these beliefs and appreciate your personal viewpoint

Quote from Zuberi

How about, don't get pregnant.

Did you practice complete abstinence before you married? If not, why would you expect anyone else to? If yes, then I congratulate you sir. Hardly anybody I have met thusfar in life can make that claim. My hat is off to you.

In a perfect world, no one would have to worry about getting pregnant, getting someone else pregnant, or (since I'm being so imaginative) getting STDs of any kind. Women AND men would finally each have a Pill that would cause blessed temporary infertility with absolutely no complications or side effects. Let me know when you find this world...hell, I'll buy you and myself a ticket there.

In the meantime, people will continue to be irresponsible and not put any planning into their most intimate of activities. As though it's really that overwhelmingly strenuous to be on the Pill and use a condom, or to limit oneself to safe oral sex...

Too bad it's not only stupid teens who act like this. *sigh*

Quote from Traveler

Did you practice complete abstinence before you married? If not, why would you expect anyone else to? If yes, then I congratulate you sir. Hardly anybody I have met thusfar in life can make that claim. My hat is off to you.

What the hell are you talking about?
I've never married anyone and I intend to keep it that way.
In case you're wondering, I am celibate.....by choice!

Quote from Traveler

Did you practice complete abstinence before you married? If not, why would you expect anyone else to? If yes, then I congratulate you sir. Hardly anybody I have met thusfar in life can make that claim. My hat is off to you.

In a perfect world, no one would have to worry about getting pregnant, getting someone else pregnant, or (since I'm being so imaginative) getting STDs of any kind. Women AND men would finally each have a Pill that would cause blessed temporary infertility with absolutely no complications or side effects. Let me know when you find this world...hell, I'll buy you and myself a ticket there.

In the meantime, people will continue to be irresponsible and not put any planning into their most intimate of activities. As though it's really that overwhelmingly strenuous to be on the Pill and use a condom, or to limit oneself to safe oral sex...

Too bad it's not only stupid teens who act like this. *sigh*

I'm a virgin due to religious and personal reasons, as I am waiting til marriage to my beloved. It's not easy to ignore but it is possible to wait and get over those urges.

There is always keeping the baby or adoption. Abortion is horrid and another sad testimonial to humans. 50 million babies have been aborted since Roe vs Wade. Who knows how much before that?! It is sickening and disgusting. If a dictator were to kill 50 million babies, he'd be hunted down and killed.

Quote from FloatyBoaty

why not carry the child as long as possible and then induce a preterm birth? No abortion, and both may live.

And you have been practising obstetrics for how long? Spend how many years studying then in residency?

So damn sure that you are right, and all the people who make a living in the field are wrong. Thats what happens when people get their facts from the bible.

Quote from Zuberi

What the hell are you talking about?
I've never married anyone and I intend to keep it that way.
In case you're wondering, I am celibate.....by choice!

Which is fine, I'm glad you are able to overcome your natural libido and live that way. As I said, my hat is off to you. I have simply spoken to a great many men who say that women should stay celibate til marriage, but men should be free to shoot their wad into any streetwalker they come across. I apologize for my assumption of what you meant.

I too never intend to marry or have children, but I do not live a celibate life. I did wait til I was 20, sure of myself, and that it was with a man I cared for/trusted...but I don't think I could completely give up sex. I have a lot of respect for people who do choose that lifestyle though.

Quote from MrWombat

And you have been practising obstetrics for how long? Spend how many years studying then in residency?

So damn sure that you are right, and all the people who make a living in the field are wrong. Thats what happens when people get their facts from the bible.

I don't scientists have it all together, and I didn't get that from the Bible - I mixed and matched technologies.

Quote from haute macabre

I'm a virgin due to religious and personal reasons, as I am waiting til marriage to my beloved. It's not easy to ignore but it is possible to wait and get over those urges.

There is always keeping the baby or adoption. Abortion is horrid and another sad testimonial to humans. 50 million babies have been aborted since Roe vs Wade. Who knows how much before that?! It is sickening and disgusting. If a dictator were to kill 50 million babies, he'd be hunted down and killed.

I know what it's like to give something up for religious reasons. When I converted to Wicca, I gave up eating animals and have switched to eating only milk and eggs from farms that I visit personally. It was difficult, and many people (even some other Wiccans) disagree with my dietary change, but it does help me to remember my beliefs every single day. I suppose the difference between you and me is that I *know* what I'm missing, whereas you've yet to experience what *you* are missing.

Just a question though...does the Bible actually come out and say to remain a virgin til marriage or is it implied? I've gotten different answers on this topic, so I'm wondering what your own stance might be.

Quote from Traveler

I know what it's like to give something up for religious reasons. When I converted to Wicca, I gave up eating animals and have switched to eating only milk and eggs from farms that I visit personally. It was difficult, and many people (even some other Wiccans) disagree with my dietary change, but it does help me to remember my beliefs every single day. I suppose the difference between you and me is that I *know* what I'm missing, whereas you've yet to experience what *you* are missing.

Just a question though...does the Bible actually come out and say to remain a virgin til marriage or is it implied? I've gotten different answers on this topic, so I'm wondering what your own stance might be.

Fornication and adultery are both sins. So, yes, it's fairly explicit on that.

Quote from FloatyBoaty

Fornication and adultery are both sins. So, yes, it's fairly explicit on that.

Adultery I understand...sleeping with someone's spouse is generally seen as bad. But what is the rationale behind fornication = sin?

Quote from Traveler

Adultery I understand...sleeping with someone's spouse is generally seen as bad. But what is the rationale behind fornication = sin?

Well, there are some biological reasons for not sleeping with more than one person. For example, a girl's pleasure from sex is inversely related to the number of boys she does it with. Other reasons include prevention of single parents, reduced chance of divorce, and fewer STDs.

However, the main reason is that God said it, therefore it is. It is about having a relationship with God. For example, if your boyfriend/partner wanted you to not do something, wouldn't you abstain from doing it for the sake of your relationship with him? God wants to have a relationship with His creation, but it is our choice whether or not the relationship exists.

Hope the answer makes sense.