How did it get so complicated? (I know the answer - see below).

Raising kids is difficult. Whatever they say a woman can't do it effectively on her own. She needs a father and a provider. In return she gives exclusive use of her body, just as he takes on sometimes irksome obligations. She satisfies her biological cravings and even the guy comes round to seeing fatherhood as a noble project. What's more the extended families of the man and woman add a few more to the clan. "May your tribe increase" as we say in the 'developing' world. That used to be the marriage deal.

So what happened? The state stepped in and meddled. History teaches that whenever it does that, disaster ensues.

Quote from Yan Yan

How did it get so complicated? (I know the answer - see below).

Raising kids is difficult. Whatever they say a woman can't do it effectively on her own. She needs a father and a provider. In return she gives exclusive use of her body, just as he takes on sometimes irksome obligations. She satisfies her biological cravings and even the guy comes round to seeing fatherhood as a noble project. What's more the extended families of the man and woman add a few more to the clan. "May your tribe increase" as we say in the 'developing' world. That used to be the marriage deal.

So what happened? The state stepped in and meddled. History teaches that whenever it does that, disaster ensues.

There's still an economic component here that is being ignored by everyone in my reading of the conversation.


Marriage as an institution is alive and well in many forms and under the aegis of many faiths, but seems to maintain its unquestioned status best when economic needs require people to work the problem using the known quantity of family structure, pretty much whether it makes anyone "happy" or not.

Talking to Mexican men who have not seen or been present with their wives and children sometimes for years, there is still no doubt that they are speaking, and working, and living eight men to a house, as committed husbands and fathers. All this emphasis on sex within or without marriage deinies the credibility and devotion required to maintain family and home for long periods without any physical contact whatever.

But the middle-class, career-obsessed model offers a detour around all that. Young unmarried college couples have long debates over whether they should "see other people" while one works on her Rhodes scholarship and the other goes off to a refugee camp in Africa for an internship. Or, as you can well imagine in any number of scenarios, the doubts themselves about whether marriage and two-parent families are even legitimate options at all leave young people with the feeling that the mission is to reinvent the wheel, and in the universities there is an utter lack of support and even institutionalized ridicule for a path in life of abstinence before marriage and monogamy within it.

The mindset in the university setting is that young people are going to be screwing like bunnies anyway, and since the whole thing is about being "value-neutral" (not), let's just hand out contraceptives, sex toys and porn in the quadrangle, and at least help them have it be a "good experience."

Genrally speaking, the families I've seen that respect marriage and parenthood for the powerful institutions they are, don't send their kids off to college. And of the ones that do, the kids actually usually come back when they get done what they went for, to get an education. To have a profession, support a family, assist their elders, live well, etc.

All the things career loners think they are looking for in the Big World are probably already waiting back home for most of them to come back and contribute to, and if they aren't, this single-career, single-parent, single-household concept is most likely going to betray them before it's over. Believe me...

Feminist dogma just holds that as a ridiculous, and potentially dangerous, idea.

There's still an economic component here that is being ignored by everyone in my reading of the conversation.

Yes. But the economic component is culturally and polically defined.

Marriage as an institution is alive and well in many forms and under the aegis of many faiths, but seems to maintain its unquestioned status best when economic needs require people to work the problem using the known quantity of family structure, pretty much whether it makes anyone "happy" or not.

I may be wrong but the US is probably the only soverign state that has "pursuit of happiness" in its constitution.
A Sufi saint said, "Life is but the blink of an eye, so spend it in graceful submission".

Talking to Mexican men who have not seen or been present with their wives and children sometimes for years, there is still no doubt that they are speaking, and working, and living eight men to a house, as committed husbands and fathers. All this emphasis on sex within or without marriage deinies the credibility and devotion required to maintain family and home for long periods without any physical contact whatever.

Never a truer word. Filipino men go to work on Middle Eastern construction sites in the desert sun and send money home so their wife and kid can sleep in a 'proper' concrete house with air-con. Filipina women work as housemaids abroad and send money to their husband and the husband might use some of the money to get a mistress. He has needs too.

Generally speaking, the families I've seen that respect marriage and parenthood for the powerful institutions they are, don't send their kids off to college. And of the ones that do, the kids actually usually come back when they get done what they went for, to get an education. To have a profession, support a family, assist their elders, live well, etc.

Slight quibble. The kid that gets through college without state assistance accumuates and enormous "moral debt" to the family. There will be a reckoning and the graduate knows it.

All the things career loners think they are looking for in the Big World are probably already waiting back home for most of them to come back and contribute to, and if they aren't, this single-career, single-parent, single-household concept is most likely going to betray them before it's over. Believe me..

Not sure I understand. The career man that makes money for his family is generally admired, even if it leads to his early death. The career woman than neglects her children is despicable to all women but feminists.
Selfish, self-obsessed and priveleged westeren women are at war with each other. Western men are merely the disposable tools that they manipulate. Thanks to the power of the mighty dollar, the rest of the world has to get involved in American domestic disputes, as a model for all to follow. Horseshit!!

"I Love Lucy"? Nope. Hated that arrogant, childish imbecile since I was fourteen years old and first saw her on black and white TV.

"I Love Lucy"? Nope. Hated that arrogant, childish imbecile since I was fourteen years old and first saw her on black and white TV.

All in good fun, I gotta say, the idea of a curvy redhead with no family to speak of, only playfully questioning her place as wife and mother, good friends next door and a club to run full of dancing Latina ladies?

Hermano, chu nid to see a physicheeatrist....

Quote from dinohip51

"I Love Lucy"? Nope. Hated that arrogant, childish imbecile since I was fourteen years old and first saw her on black and white TV.

All in good fun, I gotta say, the idea of a curvy redhead with no family to speak of, only playfully questioning her place as wife and mother, good friends next door and a club to run full of dancing Latina ladies?

Hermano, chu nid to see a physicheeatrist....

Political subversion might start as small, simple and humorous. But it gets clever and devious as it grows.

Quote from Yan Yan

Political subversion might start as small, simple and humorous. But it gets clever and devious as it grows.

One way of not taking it too seriously is to laugh at what's funny about it, subversive or not. Lucy was funny.


I hope I never lose my way so bad that I can't have a laugh, for worrying that the humor is not correctly aligned with my ideology.

To quote Jerry Seinfeld:

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Quote from FloatyBoaty

Marriage is supposed to have sex.

lol OMG but didn't it used to read (cause & effect are reversed) -> "Sex is supposed to have marrage" ?

It's obvious today which is valued most with marrage befit of any real meaning, aside from perhaps "financial taxbreaks & feminist career choice planning" (see dino above)?

For guys "marrage" is a legal binding lifelong contract based on what . . . ? ? ? Love, Desire aka RAGING KID HORMONES ? ?

Don't worry! BE Happy 'cause there's always Divorce -> Right-to-Remarry -> and then there's always

Whose Yer Daddy !?
DUH My God they're everywhere, "where the 'ell did all these kids come from" ??

"ObamaCare" SOLUTION -> Kill OLD PEOPLE off faster ? ?

( I LOVED / Watched The Carol Bernett Show !! )

(sorry confused i disgress ramble! )

Added after 10 minutes:

Too funny Just Noticed xtra "likes"

Quote from michael k above

You are all crazy

Quote from FloatyBoaty

And you're not?

lol I DIDN'T BUILD THAT! Ex-wife did ( when i stepped away from computer ! )

Quote from wh666

Oh definitely, from our moral standpoint anyway.

That's what the bible preaches. It also says a woman must honour and obey.

If people choose to get married, they should be well aware of what kind of commitment they are making. A good first step is to read the bible.

I agree that if people choose to get married they should know exactly what type of commitment they're getting into. However, I do want to remind you that not all people who marry are Christian...and even some who are would never take the words in the Bible as literally as you do.

For myself, I desire to remain single, free and childless in this life. If, by some strange change in this long held desire, I *do* suddenly want to marry, I will find a fine, upstanding man who is Wiccan like myself to create a family with. I would go insane trying to have a serious (or even casual!)loving relationship with someone like you or Floaty. No offense guys, it's just how my beliefs are.

Added after 17 minutes:

Quote from FloatyBoaty

You'd be surprised at what a true marriage is like.




sexual intercourse.

I think you *might* be deliberately silly now, but I'm not sure. If you 100% REALLY think that a married couple LITERALLY becomes a single PHYSICAL entity, I'd recommend you seek mental help. If you stab a pin into a wife's ear, the husband will not feel it. If a husband has an orgasm, the wife will not feel it. If one of them dies in a car accident, the other will not fall over dead at home/work.

Now, I understand the concept of a "soul mate", so I'm willing to concede that certain couples may begin to complete sentences for each other, be able to vaguely tell what the other is thinking, or even have their libidos sync up. But they do not mesh into one body like some horrible version of a post-birth Siamese twin. It's a physical impossibility!

As for your Jon/Jill scenario:
If Jill says she wants sex, and Jon says he wants sex, and they follow through with their feelings...it is not rape.

If Jill says she wants sex, and Jon says he does NOT, but Jill strips him and forces him to the point he can't say no or ties him up and has her way with his body...that IS rape.

If Jon says he wants sex, and Jill says she does NOT, but Jon strips her and forces her to the point she can't say no or holds her down/ties her up and has his way with her body...that IS rape.

If Jill and Jon reach an agreement where one of them will live rent free in the other's home, and all they have to do is clean, cook and have guaranteed sex once a week...that is a business arrangement, though a bit of an odd one.

What you're missing, is you cannot withhold yourself within marriage Traveler. Marriage is about giving your body and soul, without reservation, for as long as you may live. If you feel that is not for you, don't get married.

Also I would hasten to add, you are wrong. I have already explained the difference between unwanted sex and rape, two very different things. Your scenario doesn't happen in marriages unless one of them has suffered a mental breakdown or a blow to the head.

No-one says, after having sex a previous 2,894 times with the same partner, before and during, or just during the marriage, that they suddenly have such a repulsion they will kick, scream and struggle at the mere initiation of sex.

Rape just does not happen in marriage. All that ever happens is unwanted sex. Women may not want sex at that moment with their husband, but they do it anyway to shut him up, it benefits her as well and is not rape. A husband who may be stressed from work and not in the mood for bending the Mrs over, will do so anyway, having sex even though he isn't in the mood, so she doesn't sulk and feel unattractive, as he doesn't want to put up with sulking all weekend.


I feel you're missing the empathy and bond of married people, where you do something you don't want to do, to benefit the spouse or make your life easier.

However, I do want to remind you that not all people who marry are Christian...and even some who are would never take the words in the Bible as literally as you do

Indeed, but then they should follow their own religious texts and teachings.

As for the bold bit, faith isn't a pick and mix or a buffet. You cannot pick and choose what to believe or challenge. You either give your mind and faith entirely to the organisation, or not at all. People who cannot make up their minds, should be stoned in the street, as many are in the bible, for the disgrace to their faith they are. One cannot practice hypocrisy with such deep rooted spiritual beliefs.

Nothing wrong with folks viewing the Bible as the Book of Wooing and Successful Marriage. However IMO the Bible is just another long book I just read to entertain me.

Quote from michael k

lol OMG but didn't it used to read (cause & effect are reversed) -> "Sex is supposed to have marrage" ?

Either way is correct. Sex and marriage should be seen as interconnected.
__

Quote from Traveler

I think you *might* be deliberately silly now, but I'm not sure. If you 100% REALLY think that a married couple LITERALLY becomes a single PHYSICAL entity, I'd recommend you seek mental help.

Ever heard of "superposition"?
__

Quote from Traveler

If you stab a pin into a wife's ear, the husband will not feel it. If a husband has an orgasm, the wife will not feel it. If one of them dies in a car accident, the other will not fall over dead at home/work.

Why do people like fantasy so much? Because it is at least partly true. The husband may not scream in pain, but he still feels it.
__

Quote from Traveler

Now, I understand the concept of a "soul mate", so I'm willing to concede that certain couples may begin to complete sentences for each other, be able to vaguely tell what the other is thinking, or even have their libidos sync up. But they do not mesh into one body like some horrible version of a post-birth Siamese twin. It's a physical impossibility!

The concept of "soul mate" is a complete joke. It's just a way to get someone in bed, or describe some extreme emotional attraction to someone.
__

I dislike the term "rape"; it is too often used to mean undesirable sex rather than forced sex.
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And nice work, wh666!

I wish I could go on about this, as it's an interesting topic. However, as the situation that you describe as "impossible" was how I was conceived, it is beginning to hit too close to home for me.
I respect your ability to make opinions based on your own life experiences, but please know that I have very different ones that mean I'll never agree with you. Thank you for a good conversation, I truly wish I could continue with it. For my emotional health, I will not. Thanks again, really.

Found this in my travels: our modern day notions of "marriage" are indeed in direct contradiction to everthing the Bible teaches !

Every year thousands go down to their local county courthouse and obtain a marriage license from the State in order to marry their future spouse. They do this unquestioningly. They do it because their pastor has told them to go get one, and besides, "everybody else gets one." This attempts to answer the question - why should we not get one?

Sorry, hate starting threads but feel this deserves ATTENTION (mods feel free to move)

For the record, there is a huge difference between sex and rape. I've experienced both. Have you?

I don't know if I'd classify what happened during my marriage as rape, as I did consent to it. But you tell me, if one partner couldn't care less about how the other partner felt, whether they were busy, sick, tired, upset, whatever, and still demanded sex as their duty, because he wanted an orgasm, is that making love?