Welcome, Lucia...

It surprised me to read that you had googled for a difference between the two and even recognise that this site isn't against women. Many feminists have come here and claimed to know what we're all about, then gone into a mini (or not so mini) rant about how they know our thoughts and all that.

All we want is to be recognised as equally valuable human beings next to women, next to mothers, next to girls.

The angry-grrl generation that feminism has sponsored has gotten out of hand. This is reflected in views when we see a man who has been mutilated by his wife - and the world laughs at him, looking for excuses as to why she 'must have been made to do it', some-mysterious-how.

So, while the AM community's experiences with feminists isn't great - we're always hopeful that a number of them will recognise the problems we address.



You seem to be one such feminist.

Welcome Lucia.

For any parent with sense, we are living in very difficult times. Yes, sons are suffering from misandry but our daughters are also suffering from a falsifying of reality. They will come down with a thump as many of their older generation mothers are now.

Equality is a fine aim. I have no doubt that most people will sense that they are not treated as equals, but the reality is that we live in a quite individualistic world where 'blame' for setback is all too readily resorted to. We fail sometimes but do not like the normal consequences. So someone gets 'blamed.

Your son will have to carry that unfair load.

We are not equal except in the sight of God, who, let's face it, looks from way, way above !! We would LIKE to be equal before the law, and old buggers like me can actually remember when we were more or less. The rich and the poor were dealt with impartially. Men and woman were seen as equally unlikely to commit crime and when a man or a woman did so, they were punished pretty much equally. Now every man, and your son, are automatically suspect of the most outrageous, even very remotely possible criminality, and it is treated as highly probable.

Now our legal Institution is in tatters. The Law will continue to see your son as a probable danger, guily of whatever until he can prove himself innocent, and your daughter as a victim, even when she is clearly in the wrong and despite who does what to whom. If your son marries he will be likey to lose everything he works for and any wealth he manages to build for his family. He has a 50/50 chance of only knowing his children for a short time before he is driven away. Even Russian Roulette gives him 5 out of 6 chances of survival. Our feminist-enthralled society does not.

Your daughter will be preferred over your son for a University place. Her grades may be fine and so may his, but she will get the funding and assistance. Good for her in the short term; bad in the long. Bad for your son too. They will both have third-rate teachers indoctinating them instead of enabling them. No teacher will comfort them if hurt, not even to put a band-aid on a scraped knee nor a reasuuring pat to say all will be well.

UNLESS the system diseased by Feminism is eradicated and our society brought back to sound health.

You can have a part to play by rejecting - and teaching your daughter to reject - ill-gotten gains that have been taken at the expense of others.

I hope you can tell us your view as a mum who is making her way back from darkness.

I always find it fascinating for a feminist to claim that they are for equality when it's obvious that feminism is not and then claim to be a non-misandric which feminism is..

One does have to have a really good look at what feminism is really all about before making those type of comments. Good luck, you have a hard few yards in front of you and your eyes will be opened, you will not like what you are about to find out. Welcome aboard anyway..

Hello Lucia , and welcome. I know I'm not alone in being confused about what you say your beliefs are, and the labels you use to describe those beliefs.

From what you say, you don't sound like much of a feminist: you sound far too egalitarian.

I won't write much more on the subject here, since I have concentrated it into two blog entries that I hope you will read. If you do, feel free to comment on them or respond here - I'd really like to know your thoughts, once you've had time to absorb what I say.

It is not unusual to encounter a woman who will say "I'm a feminist" or "I believe in feminism" even when she then declares that she:
♦ believes equality is a good thing to aim for;
♦ disagrees with 'extremist' feminists;
♦ thinks men get a hard deal in some areas;
♦ wants to be a mother and perhaps even be given the choice to be a housewife;
♦ actually likes men.

This leads to a slight long article with many links and you can read more here:
Why many women think they are feminists -- and why they are wrong.

And a little on the difference between all the various flavours of feminism and why most people fighting feminism will seem to ignore them:
Qualified feminsm. ("moderate feminism" "ifeminism" NAFALT "feminist but.." etc.)

Welcome aboard.

Just as Douglas says, you seem more egalitarian than feminist.

Hi! Thanks for the replies!

Hmm! That makes sense, I always thought that the way of balancing out equality in the gender war should be to value the rights of both men and women, through Feminism and Masculism. But I definitely have to admit that Egalitarianism does sound a lot like me, I simply can't stand opression in all it's forms; The F word (I mispelt it in my first post) sometimes makes me want to hide my face in shame.

The current problem I think is happening in today's society is that some women are being taught (from a very early age) that abuse is okay if done to a man because they are "stronger" and that the abuse they do is not as bad as the abuse they can recieve from the male gender. Maybe I have to admit this might not be caused by feminism, but by society's silly gender roles (which are no longer needed) that women are still weak and they can't possibly do any harm; so when feminism came about and empowered women, people were unaware that men were opressed by that sexism too.

I always felt that the reason there is sexism towards men is because women's rights never had men's rights to balance it out, people always thought men's rights already existed but it needed to be established from the start. Hence why many women have been able to turn something that was supposed to be empowering and innocent like feminism into something like radical feminism which even now makes me feel ashamed, if men's rights were there from the start it would never have been able to develop.

On the flipside, anti-feminism has already gotten a bad name by it's own radicals. A lot of them who call themselves anti-feminist etc causing many people to believe that anti-feminist groups are women-haters etc. I'm not sure who they are, but they are one of the many reasons why feminists might attack sites like these. Instead of thought provoking discussion they say things like "How many times did your father touch your vagina before you turned feminist?" or "Are feminists jealous that men can stand to pee when they have to sit", or they'd pretend to be a woman with the same account and make a question like "Does feminism give me the right to not tell my boyfriend that I have herpes?"... etc. This is what many women feminist/non-feminists you guys are like:

Answer | Open Gender Studies Questions – Yahoo! Answers UK & Ireland

Not as bad as it was before, a lot less troll questions. When I first saw it, I thought it was typical trolls acting up, but then I researched a bit and saw that radical feminists were being noticed; only problem is that non-radicals are being thrown into the same catagory as well. But I'm wondering for you anti-feminists, what do you think of the situation, and do you have any solutions for it. How would you communicate to non-sexist feminists who are in need of seeing the other side and don't know where to fit in like myself?

Sorry this might be the wrong place for a post.

Welcome.

It's all very well supporting a fluffy and 'disconnected' variety of feminism, but in reality it's only ever radical feminism that permeates the influential positions in society. Most detrimentally! Moderate feminists are as politically effective as a chocolate fireguard in their complicity of silence on subjects they supposedly oppose.

No authoritative brand of feminism in politics has ever advocated men and women working together. Ever! If your not creating distrust, animosity and division then you won't be accepted by the feminist high command. Hate and destruction is what fuels feminism and it only escalates to newer, twisted levels of unadulterated hatred as it secures yet more power. Feminism must be destroyed in it's entirety for society to begin healing.

Self-ascribed feminists have to realize there is no correlation between the utopian dictionary definition of feminism and the misandric beast it has universally mutated into. And trying to find good in modern feminism is a bit like sifting through plague-ridden cattle in the hope there might be a tasty morsel lurking amongst the festering flesh and wriggling maggots. If you consume the flesh of feminism you become part of the contagion.

Welcome !!!

Quote from Lucia

On the flipside, anti-feminism has already gotten a bad name by it's own radicals. A lot of them who call themselves anti-feminist etc causing many people to believe that anti-feminist groups are women-haters etc. I'm not sure who they are, but they are one of the many reasons why feminists might attack sites like these. Instead of thought provoking discussion they say things like "How many times did your father touch your vagina before you turned feminist?" or "Are feminists jealous that men can stand to pee when they have to sit", or they'd pretend to be a woman with the same account and make a question like "Does feminism give me the right to not tell my boyfriend that I have herpes?"... etc.

I think anti-feminism mostly has gotten it's negative reputation because feminists do not allow for anything else but one-sided debate and deem anything that differs from their agenda as misogynist, sexist and whatever overused, meaningless words their shaming language dictionary contains. Consdering anti-feminism is nearly always at odds with feminism, that means anti-feminism is continiously talked foul of by a group of radical biggots whom unfortunately dominate the media, acedemics and politics...

We don't have radicals with influence. Even the most outstanding and exemplary persons amongst the anti-feminist do not hold much influence at all (if any) in the media, academics and politics.

Radical feminism DOES hold much influence in all of these fields.

It makes for a huge difference.

True, I do not deny your rights in fighting against something that causes unfair laws as you have every right. Though I have to say a lot of those things have been there before feminism due to gender sterotypes existing already in society like "Men are stronger so they must have been more aggresive/damaging" and "Women are emotional so it must have been an in-the-moment thing", radical feminism only added to it with it's hijackers who wanted to also leave the unfair advantages for women and disadvantages for men in.

A few more questions. ^^

I'm just wondering, in some countries like Syria where there is no feminism and women are still in the dark ages effect where we once were, how do you think they should fight for their rights to make sure they don't fall in the same pitrap that western society did?

Also, how would you appeal to today's feminists and educate them about the unfairness towards men without making them think that they are having their rights revoked?

If removing feminism doesn't work, do you think there is any way to change it?

Do you think the removal of expected gender roles and sterotypes in society help get rid of unfairness in laws to men and women?

Thanks for reading again.

Welcome Lucia, lovely to meet up with you.

Quote from Lucia

How would you communicate to non-sexist feminists who are in need of seeing the other side and don't know where to fit in like myself?

Good question IMO.

I expect you'll find YOUR way of doing this.

IMO, you have a special opportunity to talk with these women because you have experienced things like growing up in the household you did (they care about these issues) and you look to have come out successful (have your children in your care).

From my experience of doing what you want to do, I have learned going in on the attack or pro men's rights, (both considered the same as you described well, IMO) only puts up barriers. What I find works is introducing yourself as someone who gets the issues like child abuse (physical, sexual, emotional and/or psychological) and domestic violence (same types of abuse) and then ask them what they think about men's rights or say you feel concerned for men's rights and why.

During the conversation stats often come up and I have mine and they have theirs, if they bring up more, I bring up more and we both bring up real life situations (you'll get plenty on men's sites and through having your eyes open once you become aware to see). At first you need to plant seeds of thought and challenge what they've learned, IMO. Many will search out truth because they are genuine and they'll be open when someone else comes along and adds to your activism.

You will be welcome (I am sure ) to share your experience as you go about advocating for balance and others here will give advice on what may work, provide information though links etc.

It's neat to have you aboard.

Added after 15 minutes:

Quote from Lucia

I'm just wondering, in some countries like Syria where there is no feminism and women are still in the dark ages effect where we once were, how do you think they should fight for their rights to make sure they don't fall in the same pitrap that western society did?

I think they should make their own women's movement based on their own needs. I was reading the other day about Africa's so called feminism. It's based on heterosexual women and what they consider important which is food and water.

Sadly, Africa also has women eagerly hating men and western feminist are already creating nasty leaders. This will be happening in Syria and similar countries, IMO. I guess continuing with awareness is the best solution at present.

Yeah but the radical feminists hate us, from confronting other members of the feminist community with my views they call me "wishy-washy" and "man pleasing". They actually believe that the only way to get women's rights is to be brutal and get it in any way necessary.

If I were to even mention things like "man get the short end of the stick with rights too" they will not listen to me, they'll practically put their fingers in their eyes and automaticlly judge me as a "whore", "brainwashed" or "christian housewife"... well I am a housewife but I chose that profession, and I'm the athiest.

However, I live in the UK, laws towards men are pretty fair here, radical feminism has calmed down, women get pretty much the same jail time as men. Jail time is not calculated by gender or circumstance but rather on things like the type of assault, if it was toward a minor, brutality, if they plead guilty etc.

This is an example of equal rights happening in the UK:

Current State Pension age

For men, the current State Pension age is 65.
For women, the current State Pension age is increasing from 60 to 65 from April 2010. This affects women born on or after 6 April 1950.

They aren't even shy to publish articles like this, and the public's general reactions are as they should be:

Man's penis cut off, put through garbage disposal - Yahoo! News

And even if the mother isn't doing the abuse herself it is pointed out:
Baby P killers unmasked: Evil mother Tracey Connelly and her neo-Nazi boyfriend Steven Barker | Mail Online

etc. It's not perfect, you do get a bit of "grrl power" and angry ones now and then but it's not as bad as it is in other places. I'm hoping in america more awareness for men's groups comes around.

Thanks for the welcome.

Quote from Lucia

I'm just wondering, in some countries like Syria where there is no feminism and women are still in the dark ages effect where we once were, how do you think they should fight for their rights to make sure they don't fall in the same pitrap that western society did?

Firstly, beware of implying Syria is in the dark ages. When Europe was in the dark ages, muttering mumbo jumbo to cure diseases and treating science as heresy, the middle east was busy inventing things like lenses (spectacles and telescopes), genetic breeding (many of our best strains of animals derive from middle east stock), cartography. When Europeans went over to "civilise" the savages, they learnt how to bathe, wash their hair ("shampoo" is word that comes from Hindi), heal wounds (the Christian knights learnt to trust the enemy's doctors far more than their own) and make books. Starting slowly with the Industrial Revolution, Europe and America have soared ahead technically but for many centuries before that, the middle east was the technical centre and has millenia of civilisations and empires behind it.

Secondly, do not imagine that feminism is not in the middle east. The United Nations pushes feminist policies around the world and feminists are active in all sorts of ways in the middle east, such as insisting on allowing the burka to be used, when countries are trying to discourage it. Syria is a special instance of a country that is 'modernising' (euphemism for 'westernising') and having problems with feminists in doing so.

Quote from Lucia

Also, how would you appeal to today's feminists and educate them about the unfairness towards men without making them think that they are having their rights revoked?

Let them know that feminism has done nothing for them. That women's suffrage, Women's Liberation, the pill, and many other advances that have placed women in a position of equality have nothing to do with feminism: they can turn their back on feminism without abandoning rights, just as a white person in the USA can turn their back on the KKK without abandoning their rights as a citizen.

Quote from Lucia

If removing feminism doesn't work, do you think there is any way to change it?

This is a path that has been tried. It leads to all the different kinds of feminism that people claim to believe in, as they seek to remove themselves from what they discover feminism to really be. It does not work, any more than being 'kind of' aligned with the KKK can work. It can never work: even the most benign form of feminism is about "gaining equality for women" but equality with what? With other women? Or with society? You can not have quality for part of something. You can only have equality with all of something. So you can have equality for people, which includes equality for blacks, males, shorties, oldsters, women, xeno-Christians and all, but you cannot achieve equality in society by only looking to get equality for part of society.

Quote from Lucia

Do you think the removal of expected gender roles and sterotypes in society help get rid of unfairness in laws to men and women

That depends entirely on the stereotype. "Women have babies" is a stereotype that society should recognise and all the implications should be considered. "Men are dumb" is a stereotype increasingly being pushed in 'entertainment' but is not helpful at all.

Yeah, Hi! I am a father of a young son and ex to a psycho ex wife. Before really commenting;

I'm going to see this one unfold.

Welcome.