Quote from dappleshade

Hi!

HI!!

Quote from dappleshade

First of all, I’d like to explain that I’m a woman.

Cool!

Quote from dappleshade

I’m also a feminist.

Not cool.

Quote from dappleshade

Wait – I’m also a masculist! I oppose misandry just as much as I oppose misogyny, and I wanted to achieve a couple things by posting on here.

Well by your own admission (below) the one (feminist) denigrates the other (feminism = misandry/bashing men). So, I'm not so sure these days how anyone can be both. That's almost like saying "I'm a man ... but I'm also a fish!" (we all know mermaids don't actually exist, but they're a nice idea - just like a feminist who doesn't condone misandry is a nice idea).

Quote from dappleshade

My awareness of the predisposition of some – not all, but certainly many of the most vocal – feminists towards misandry has been growing steadily.

I'm not sure whether you're admitting that feminism is becoming more and more openly hostile towards men or whether you missed out a word and are trying to suggest more feminists are speaking out against misandry?

Quote from dappleshade

A couple of anecdotes. I remember I first really got just how bad it was when I realised that my university had a Women’s Officer, but no Men’s Officer. The position of Women’s Officer certainly made sense when the university was founded in the 60’s, as it was representing a minority voice. Yet when I attended it had more women than men studying there. I remember the assumption by said Women’s Officer that the Anime Society was ‘male perverts watching hentai’ (in fact, said society had 60% female membership and certainly did not screen hentai).

I also remember seeing a girl in a lecture theatre with trainers on with a slogan – ‘Men are Stupid’. At first I laughed. Then suddenly it hit me, and I was shocked. If those trainers had said ‘Women are Stupid’ there would have been a riot.

Indeed, the hypocrisy that is allowed by feminists is astounding. Like you, I observed the hypocrisy during my college time too. I had a lengthy email exchange with the feminist groups at my college who went out of their way to deny men suffer any kind of problems at all when I asked them for a men's officer.

Quote from dappleshade

All of those experiences are built on a fundamental lesson learned in my childhood. During my formative years I was repeatedly and violently abused – not by my father, as most people assume abuse must come from, but by my mother. I witnessed horrific acts of abuse by my mother against my father. It wasn’t just the constant verbal abuse, the screaming, the tirades of frothing hate. It was slaps, kicks, breaking china over him, nail gouging and pummelling. The kids got hit for ‘standing up for Daddy’ when we just tried to get in the way and stop Mummy from leaving Daddy bleeding again. (Even as kids, we knew what we were seeing was fundamentally wrong).

You were allowed to know your father, you and he were lucky! I had similar to your experiences but had no idea about my father until I was 16.

Quote from dappleshade

Most people laugh at the thought of women’s violence against men, don’t take it seriously. I would like to assure anyone reading this that it was not only serious, it was a living hell. A lot of people ask, too, how it is that my father ‘let her’ do it, the underlying assumption being that he was stronger than her so he could have stopped her. Yes, he was. He ‘let her’ for the same reason that anyone suffering abuse allows it to continue. He was browbeaten, belittled and constantly told that he ‘deserved it’.

Been there too... and he probably knew that any retaliation/defence would result in legal ramifications for him alone and her 'winning' everything from under his nose.

Quote from dappleshade

Many years later I asked my Dad, who finally had the courage to move out for good, what had happened. He told me a lot of telling points. One, he had been brought up in a world which believed that women couldn’t abuse men and so he never defined what had happened to him as abuse. Two, he genuinely believed that as kids we would want to stay with our mother if he left her (and was astounded to be informed that the complete opposite had been true, we had desperately wanted to escape with our sane father). Three, he had believed that even if he had wanted custody, the courts would have ruled against him.

1) Women can't abuse (this view is supported by feminism and reinforced with 'only men abuse' messages). 2) Kids want to be with mom. (This message is also repeated by feminism). 3) Courts would screw him (and kids) if he went for custody (again, this is reinforced by feminists - especially when their blogs claim MRA's & FRA's are just wife-beaters trying to further abuse their ex and children).

Quote from dappleshade

Did you know the first men’s refuge in the UK only opened in 2003?

Yep! Much to the disappointment of feminists across the world. And one built in NZ not long after was burned down by a feminist group, one of the guys who helped build it with his very own hands was there when it happened!

Quote from dappleshade

Well, my Dad had been walking around with a ripped-up face for years before that. I don’t dispute for a second the figures that state that violence by women is drastically higher than most people realise. (Let’s not forget that my mother was also shaking her children, shoving them around, pummeling them and actually leaving them in fear for their lives. There were at least a couple of times we could have turned out as a child-murder statistic).

Yep. My brother moved out aged 11 after my mother took the metal leg of an electric organ and beat him with it across his back. I won't bore you with my own stories of horror...

Quote from dappleshade

So, whilst I don’t want this site to become a reactionary site against women any more than I want to see feminist sites being reactionary against men, I do want to applaud what you’re doing here and strongly encourage you to continue the good work. Not just for the sake of your sons, but also for your bewildered daughters who really don’t want to see Daddy crying again.

This site isn't reactionary against women - feminists yes, but not women. We're here to let men and children of men (i.e. everyone) speak their stories for all to read.

I was gonna reply but seems marx has summed things up nicely.

(we all know mermaids don't actually exist, but they're a nice idea - just like a feminist who doesn't condone misandry is a nice idea).

Hey, I'd like to think I'm a mermaid!

The definition of feminist you linked to in this quote said everything - a lot of these misandrists are 'miseducated on what feminism is truly about'. Feminism is opposition to discrimination against women, masculism is opposition to discrimination against men. The vocal feminists who are busy blaming men and being vindictive aren't really feminists as far as I'm concerned. That said, a lot of what they say filters down into popular conception amongst women as a whole. The misandrists are ruining feminism's legitimacy with their nastiness.

I'm not sure whether you're admitting that feminism is becoming more and more openly hostile towards men or whether you missed out a word and are trying to suggest more feminists are speaking out against misandry?

Both!

Indeed, the hypocrisy that is allowed by feminists is astounding. Like you, I observed the hypocrisy during my college time too. I had a lengthy email exchange with the feminist groups at my college who went out of their way to deny men suffer any kind of problems at all when I asked them for a men's officer.

This sucks, and is also stupid.

You were allowed to know your father, you and he were lucky! I had similar to your experiences but had no idea about my father until I was 16.

I'm sorry to hear that

Yep! Much to the disappointment of feminists across the world. And one built in NZ not long after was burned down by a feminist group, one of the guys who helped build it with his very own hands was there when it happened!

That...completely sucks. I may go so far as to say that is evil.

Yep. My brother moved out aged 11 after my mother took the metal leg of an electric organ and beat him with it across his back. I won't bore you with my own stories of horror...

Ouch. I'm aware there's nothing sensible I can say to that, but...yeah.

This site isn't reactionary against women - feminists yes, but not women. We're here to let men and children of men (i.e. everyone) speak their stories for all to read.

Quickly skimming through this site, I have read some alarmingly anti-women quotes.

It's another reason I don't want to be with women. Men are much better to talk to, much more logical and reasonable. Alot of the reasons men talk to women has to do with their sexual needs.

- Wage Gap Myth

Men always seek to tell the truth.

This space is one among many where that may happen once in a while.

It is not complicated at all.

Merely something completely foreign to women's basic nature.

- WHY YOU'RE HERE (tell your story)

....No but the ones that are not dont wear badges. I am a bachelor I intend to remain one -a celibate one - so far so good- and I encourage other men do the same. I have been told oh you just have not met the right one...You are bitter blah blah...Why are you giving up on what could bring happiness.
...You have a problem with women...yes every shaming tactic or ill thought out platitude and "Not all women are like that" is the standard cliche.
Alas most women I met are like that...

- But not all women are like that.

All I'm saying is, for some of you guys on here, in combating misandry, don't end up committing misogyny.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." might be a good quote here. Sexism being the abyss I'm talking out - both kinds of sexism.

Quote from dappleshade

Hey, I'd like to think I'm a mermaid!

The definition of feminist you linked to in this quote said everything - a lot of these misandrists are 'miseducated on what feminism is truly about'. Feminism is opposition to discrimination against women, masculism is opposition to discrimination against men. The vocal feminists who are busy blaming men and being vindictive aren't really feminists as far as I'm concerned. That said, a lot of what they say filters down into popular conception amongst women as a whole. The misandrists are ruining feminism's legitimacy with their nastiness.

I agree with you here for the most part. Feminism does not define itself as opposition to discrimination against women and often it promotes discrimination IN women's favour. This is why America has 'VAWA' instead of 'VAPA', just as one example. VAWA has it written in law that services which help men can NOT get any support. Masculism doesn't to my knowledge promote men to have superior legal rights over women. Are you aware of any influential mens-groups demanding superior rights for men at the expense of women?

I realise you and certainly not 'every' feminist is going to look at misandry and just be fine with it, many are openly loving towards men... until the moment there's an issue rising up - and suddenly they show they want to be discriminated in favour of women at the cost of men, hence, once again, we see results in the form of legal issues meaning either women get a legal step-up with employees (affirmative action) or special protections for women-only (e.g. rape allegations/VAWA, etc.) and so forth. Let's not forget too, despite England having new laws to demand full equality from any government services. That's great - until I contacted my local MP who forwarded my concerns to higher government. I asked him if services for male victims of DV received any monetary funding. I received a reply by proxy of my MP from the top level of government stating that because there was little need for funding to support men, only a fraction of the money was given to men's needs. Yep - this once again sets the standards for 'equality' and to my knowledge, not one single feminist (whether s/he claims to seek equality or not) has taken issue with this blatant sexism, as is the same for the sexism of the VAWA laws.

Quote from dappleshade

Both!

Well that would mean that feminism is doubling on a daily basis, which I find difficult to believe.

Quote from dappleshade

This sucks, and is also stupid.

I agree, but remember these are at the top of the student union of our colleges and Universities - they are setting the standards and demanding the endless propaganda posters our children and young-adults see on a daily basis via the lunch-rooms, hallways, entrances & exits, etc. etc.

Quote from dappleshade

That...completely sucks. I may go so far as to say that is evil.

Indeed so. Apparently, while the men were building it from ground-up, feminist groups rallied outside jeering and harassing them.

Quote from dappleshade

Quickly skimming through this site, I have read some alarmingly anti-women quotes.

All I'm saying is, for some of you guys on here, in combating misandry, don't end up committing misogyny.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." might be a good quote here. Sexism being the abyss I'm talking out - both kinds of sexism.

This I agree with... However, keep in mind that unlike feminists, no MRA I know of is in a powerful or influential position. We're not in government and we're not in the media nor are we in academia. When I think about it from my work perspective, I wonder if feminists have realised they're failing their "Duty of Care" when they misrepresent men as whole (e.g. blaming teh patriarchy) and rely on dodgy 'studies' to 'prove' men are at fault for any & every thing?

Quote from dappleshade

Quickly skimming through this site, I have read some alarmingly anti-women quotes.

- Wage Gap Myth

- WHY YOU'RE HERE (tell your story)

- But not all women are like that.

All I'm saying is, for some of you guys on here, in combating misandry, don't end up committing misogyny.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." might be a good quote here. Sexism being the abyss I'm talking out - both kinds of sexism.

While Marx has responded to this, there are some things I'd like to add which I recommend you should keep in mind.

Discussion is not censored here. Even feminists are allowed to do their say here. It is when people go too far, that action is taken. If you take a look at feministing or mumsnet, you will see quite the opposite world. Civil input is met with obscene responses (that put the worst reactions you can find here to shame) and swift censorship. The reason? Merely voicing a viewpoint that do not follow in line with the 'doctrine' to put it that way.

There are also allot folks here whom are kinda burnt or fed up. Ranging from horrible divorces, losing contact with one's children to just being really fed up with the way men - and thus those persons as well - are being treated and portrayed. The pain and grievances these men have, can not be voiced in many places without being met with ridicule, retaliation and/or shaming. This forum is one of the few places where men can talk freely without feminist influences undermining them by demanding them to be more politically correct or hijacking discussing and thus diverting attention back to women's issues (which already has enough representation).

As for 'not all women are like that', that is true, but what will ultimately be argued, is that the reason this statement is of little meaning to various members here. The reason is not because all women are evil, but because they are in a legal position where they hold all the cards whereas that of men is a position of powerlessness. See it as women being handed a loaded shotgun with the message 'you can take him out anytime you want to'. I hope you can understand why this is reason for various men being cautious and viewing women as high-risk. Others are heavily dissatisfied with attitudes that are quite... common.

Either way, my advice is to not let isolated comments be cause for alarm. As is said to others as well, a thick skin is beneficial. Do take the liberty to further educate yourself by looking through the wealth of information here, it was valuable to me and many others and I am certain it is to you as well. Don't blindly accept it as gospel truth, verify it if you must and dispel whatever misconceptions you still believe in.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

Quote from Nynrah Ghost

While Marx has responded to this, there are some things I'd like to add which I recommend you should keep in mind.

Discussion is not censored here. Even feminists are allowed to do their say here. It is when people go too far, that action is taken. If you take a look at feministing or mumsnet, you will see quite the opposite world. Civil input is met with obscene responses (that put the worst reactions you can find here to shame) and swift censorship. The reason? Merely voicing a viewpoint that do not follow in line with the 'doctrine' to put it that way.

There are also allot folks here whom are kinda burnt or fed up. Ranging from horrible divorces, losing contact with one's children to just being really fed up with the way men - and thus those persons as well - are being treated and portrayed. The pain and grievances these men have, can not be voiced in many places without being met with ridicule, retaliation and/or shaming. This forum is one of the few places where men can talk freely without feminist influences undermining them by demanding them to be more politically correct or hijacking discussing and thus diverting attention back to women's issues (which already has enough representation).

As for 'not all women are like that', that is true, but what will ultimately be argued, is that the reason this statement is of little meaning to various members here. The reason is not because all women are evil, but because they are in a legal position where they hold all the cards whereas that of men is a position of powerlessness. See it as women being handed a loaded shotgun with the message 'you can take him out anytime you want to'. I hope you can understand why this is reason for various men being cautious and viewing women as high-risk. Others are heavily dissatisfied with attitudes that are quite... common.

Either way, my advice is to not let isolated comments be cause for alarm. As is said to others as well, a thick skin is beneficial. Do take the liberty to further educate yourself by looking through the wealth of information here, it was valuable to me and many others and I am certain it is to you as well. Don't blindly accept it as gospel truth, verify it if you must and dispel whatever misconceptions you still believe in.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

Good post, NG.

And Dappleshade, welcome to the AM forums! You will find myriad viewpoints here, ranging from feminist to MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way). On the MRA scale I would say my views hover somewhere between egalitarian and MGTOW, leaning toward the egalitarian side. As NG said it is good to have a thick skin here. Having said that, you will definitely have more lattitude here than you probably would anywhere else.

Nynrah Ghost has largely nailed it. Dappleshade: whilst I won't pretend that there isn't a misogynistic minority, here, it is just that: a MINORITY. The vast majority of us, myself included, are anti-feminism, not anti-women. What I will confess, however, is to finding myself less bothered by reading misogyny here, than misandry, elsewhere. Why is this, if I'm not anti-women? Fact of the matter is, in the western world, we are positively INUNDATED with misandry, wherever we look, once we learn to recognise it as such, as opposed to allowing ourselves to remain oblivious as to it.

Switch on the television, and you'll find misandric advertisments and comedies. Go to work, and you'll hear women bitch about men being "useless". Look online, and it's not hard to find links to misandric articles. And if you're a single father (as is common, these days, particularly on this forum), well, you're almost certain to be experiencing in a more first-hand way, some of the misandry that our society has to offer. Yet what happens, should you try to say anything about women, in retaliation? You're condemned half to death, that's what! Well, except in places like this one. If you had to endure on daily a basis, in a wide range of contexts, such offensive remarks about women, and yet knew full well that, were you to ever question anything about men, you'd be slaughtered for it............and then you found this 'magical haven', online, where you weren't condemned for making complaints about certain men.............wouldn't you take the rare opportunity to do so????

Then bear in mind that your average man here, has suffered far more at the hands of women, than has the average woman at the hands of men (i.e. losing home and kids, commonly), and you can perhaps see why the men here have more reason than the women elsewhere, to distrust and be fearful of relationships with women. Men may be capable of hitting and cheating on women, but women are capable of hitting men WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRISAL, cheating, and taking their home and children.

I'm still not condoning misogyny, but, trust me, were this to be a women's forum, frequented by women who had suffered at the hands of men, as many men here have at the hands of women.............it would be far more misandric a forum, than this is misogynistic.

Anyway, welcome, I think you have much to offer this forum; just please try to separate the misogynistic minority, from the women-friendly MAJORITY.

What an interesting woman. Complexity and open to experience.

Welcome.

You seem to have arisen from your childhood experiences well. It didn't kill you but left you strong.

It is easy to mistake an inherent identification with your own sex for the far more political intent of Feminism, and while I can accept the former as 'natural', the latter is a daily curse far worse than your monthly cycle. The support and encouragement of women, by women, and for women is not in itself a bad thing anymore than a group of men forming a club or association to help other chaps is a bad thing. But when it vilifies the 'other' and causes the wholesale change in Laws and Institutions to deliberately destroy the evolving society we live in and strip all of Freedom and Justice in the name of 'Womyn's Right', one can easily see the difference.

I will look for your inputs here with interest. You will have things to say and a woman's perspective to provide for our edification. But I hope that we, in turn, can show you the reasons why you might consider more deeply this infatuation with titling yourself 'a Feminist', instead of a Female Human Being.

Let us hear more from you.

Welcome.

Misogyny is bereft of fertile social soil to germinate beyond a few wilting seedlings, whilst misandry is cultivated in huge plantations with state-funded fertilizer.

Another "I am a feminist but.." commentary is that the same as "I am not a prostitute but I take money for sex"..

As soon as I read the "I am a Feminist" you lost me and no matter how you paint yourself or try to make yourself sound agreeable or reasonable, it won't work. You are a member and support a HATE movement so as far as I am concerned that is precisely where I write you off and you no longer exist. You made that choice and right there is the consequence..

Cj is grumpy today.

I assure you, CJ, I don't support hating men or hate men.

Reading through the comments on here, I can understand the reactionary anger (and agree that, unfortunately, there are almost certainly a whole lot more sexist comments originating from women on feminist sites). It's still dangerous to adopt the mode and mindset a misandrist feminist has though.

The reason I use the term feminism is through definition. When I say 'feminist', I mean 'opposing the oppression of women'. When I say masculist, I mean 'opposing the oppression of men'. When I say 'misandrist', I mean 'oppressive towards men' and when I say 'misogynist', I mean 'oppressive towards women'.

I've experienced sexism from men, actual genuine misogyny (although the worst and bulk has been during my time travelling in the Middle East). I've also witnessed hideous sexism towards men. To me, feminism is any positive act to counteract the oppression of women, whereas masculism is any positive act to counteract the oppression of men. Both exist.

I would happily conclude that misandry is now a growing, and more importantly, unacknowledged problem. I'll also happily agree that activist feminist movements are often going too far and oppressing men. To me though, you're weakening your case by using the term 'feminism' where you mean 'misandric feminism'.

A case could be argued that little of the feminist movement has been other than misandry. I still think that you're hurting your overall case and cause by using 'feminism' to describe what you oppose. If a woman hears you saying 'I'm anti-feminist', well, by the dictionary definition you're saying 'I'm against the opposition of the oppression of women' or 'I'm against positive action to help oppressed women'.

If there is any useful contribution I can make to the site as a woman, it is this. You're alienating not only women that might support you, but men. My Dad, as a father of four daughters, wouldn't want to be involved with anything called an 'anti-feminist' movement...this being despite the fact that he definitely would support the this cause after what he's been through. Saying 'but most people have the wrong definition of feminism' doesn't help you stop alienating guys who aren't anti-women and equate the two terms as the same thing.

Finally, I'm happy and open to learning and being educated, and I wholeheartedly support what you guys are doing.

I assure you, CJ, I don't support hating men or hate men.

Then renounce your feminist label

leave it far behind

repent

step into the light

we have cake!

Quote from Unregistered

I assure you, CJ, I don't support hating men or hate men.

Reading through the comments on here, I can understand the reactionary anger (and agree that, unfortunately, there are almost certainly a whole lot more sexist comments originating from women on feminist sites). It's still dangerous to adopt the mode and mindset a misandrist feminist has though.

The reason I use the term feminism is through definition. When I say 'feminist', I mean 'opposing the oppression of women'. When I say masculist, I mean 'opposing the oppression of men'. When I say 'misandrist', I mean 'oppressive towards men' and when I say 'misogynist', I mean 'oppressive towards women'.

I've experienced sexism from men, actual genuine misogyny (although the worst and bulk has been during my time travelling in the Middle East). I've also witnessed hideous sexism towards men. To me, feminism is any positive act to counteract the oppression of women, whereas masculism is any positive act to counteract the oppression of men. Both exist.

I would happily conclude that misandry is now a growing, and more importantly, unacknowledged problem. I'll also happily agree that activist feminist movements are often going too far and oppressing men. To me though, you're weakening your case by using the term 'feminism' where you mean 'misandric feminism'.

A case could be argued that little of the feminist movement has been other than misandry. I still think that you're hurting your overall case and cause by using 'feminism' to describe what you oppose. If a woman hears you saying 'I'm anti-feminist', well, by the dictionary definition you're saying 'I'm against the opposition of the oppression of women' or 'I'm against positive action to help oppressed women'.

If there is any useful contribution I can make to the site as a woman, it is this. You're alienating not only women that might support you, but men. My Dad, as a father of four daughters, wouldn't want to be involved with anything called an 'anti-feminist' movement...this being despite the fact that he definitely would support the this cause after what he's been through. Saying 'but most people have the wrong definition of feminism' doesn't help you stop alienating guys who aren't anti-women and equate the two terms as the same thing.

Finally, I'm happy and open to learning and being educated, and I wholeheartedly support what you guys are doing.

Thing is, we can explain our position and what anti-feminism is about. If people are open-minded, then there is no problem. People that remain hostile are an entirely different matter. It would implicate lots of indoctrination.

Also, when looking at sexism, there are two things one must distinguish between:
- sexism at a individual level (a person behaving in a sexist manner)
- sexism at a institutional level (sexism reïnforced by institutions, authorities and legislation)

The latter is the kind of sexism that forms a serious problem, for people with unpleasant manners can be shoved aside whilst institutional sexism can not be ignored like that. It is this kind of sexism men face is the Western world. It is also the West we speak about when we state women enjoy excessive privileges. The Middle-East is an entirely different matter. It is a society which is brutal to all. What we are foremost about though is still the West. In my personal vision we can actively start looking to other places once our own mess is fixed.

I have something to digest for you though. You say feminism means 'being against women's opression' to you. I say feminism is a serious, yet covert form a misogyny. I say feminists in charge don't really care about at all.

Think about it. Do some research first though should you actually try to learn why this is so.