http://heartoffalsehood.wordpress.co...violence-lust/
What follows is a critique of ProFeministMale’s most recent post, “Can I Still Be ‘Masculine’ and a Feminist?” PFM and I have conversed with each other via our blogs in the past, and my basic take on him is that he has really good intentions, but he’s having a very difficult time understanding some of the critiques of masculinity that feminism takes for granted. Basically, he wants to be violent (to other men, in the “name of feminism”) and he wants to be a good pro-/feminist/-ally, and I don’t think that’s possible.
I will be as generous as I can be in this critique, reading with the grain and giving the benefit of the doubt where I can. But considering this post of his and his continued interest in violence and seeking power … I will likely find it rather difficult to be generous all the time. I’m not sure what the best path to take is in PFM’s case. I tried to be logical and open-minded in the “Violence and feminism must go hand in hand” post in the comments (at least in my first few comments), but I felt like PFM played the “devil’s advocate” role instead of listening to me and taking what I had to say seriously. This is part of the reason I chose to critique his post here rather than answer his questions on his blog — this way, I can explain what I want to say at length instead of being interrupted by PFM and his pseudo-feminist buddies.
PFM, if you’re reading, please listen to what I say here. You’re welcome to do feminism as you choose, but what you’re advocating is highly problematic through the feminist lens, and I wish you’d reconsider your position.Can I be a feminist and still, at the same time, hold on to my masculinity? I mean, if a female feminist can still cling on to her “womanhood” and be a feminist, why can’t I be the same? If a woman can still wear make-up and high heels and be a feminist, why can’t I be masculine and still be a feminist?
Yes, you can be a feminist and hold on to your masculinity. The underlying assumption in your question is that feminism is emasculating to men. The problem is that masculinity, as it’s defined in our society, is messed up. According to the Sexual Harassment Awareness Site (via XYOnline):[O]ne form of masculinity [is] toxic – it is harmful to men, it is harmful to women, & it leads to destructive, unequal relationships between women & men. This is hegemonic masculinity, meaning it is the dominant cultural norm of being male to which men are held accountable, despite the fact that individual men depart, or try to depart, from this norm. (Bird, 1996)
This norm defines being male as emotionally detached, competitive, & aggressive, as associating intimacy only with sex, & masculinity with the viewing of women as sexual objects. If you list all of the stereotypes that are associated with being male, it is hegemonic masculinity that you are most likely defining. The dominant cultural norm of masculinity defines being male as being ‘not-female’.
Feminism and feminists are not interested in taking away men’s identities — we’re interested in asking men, including you, despite your pro-feminist status, why you’re so interested in keeping your masculine identities as they are. If they harm you and everyone around you, why would you want to identify that way? Why don’t you change masculinity?
As for your comparison of masculinity and makeup/high heels, the glaring difference between the two is that being masculine gives you power in this society, whereas makeup and high heels and other accoutrements for women are tactics for women to survive the patriarchy that masculinity perpetuates. (Also, wearing makeup and high heels is not “womanhood” — it’s offensively reductive to simplify it that way.) I suppose they are both survival mechanisms, and I can see where you’d be able to make this comparison. However, because you’re male in a society that privileges male/masculine over female/feminine, you have more ability, freedom, and agency to change society by going against the norm.I bring this up because lately, I’ve been charged with not being a feminist because I still enjoy male privilege.
The most serious charge is that I still want power - that in having political ambitions, rather than giving up power, I am clinging on and going after power.
But if I am using such power for something good - feminism, why is it so wrong?
So what if I enjoy a good fight? So what if, upon hearing a Navy guy make an anti-women, anti-feminist comment at the bar, and acting like a misogynist objectifying jackass, I challenge him to a fight? Sure, it’s violence; but it’s violence for feminism?
You do still enjoy male privilege — you’re male. You will never be able to get away from that. But you can mediate your male privilege by examining your privilege and using your power for good in a good way. Committing violence in the name of feminism is not good and it’s not feminist. Even if it’s violence against men who are misogynist asshole jerkfaces, even if you enjoy fighting, even if you’re looking to protect a woman from verbal harassment (chivalry/patriarchy alert) — violence is inherently not feminist**. If you do end up in a politically powerful position and use that privilege to help the feminist movement, well, awesome. That’s not the same as committing voluntary, non-defensive physical harm to another human being. Regardless of your intentions, you can never truly examine your male privilege when you take joy in violence. And if you’re not interested in examining your male privilege, I’m not sure what you’re going on about feminism for.So what if I enjoy the taste of women (sexually) or the taste of beer, or that on Sundays, I am watching football? So what if I love the feeling of being able to shoot my M-16 so accurately that i can hit a target 500 meters away? I am still a feminist.
I can still be tender, loving, caring, and I can still stick by my values and convictions.
To be sure, those who accused me of such are 2nd Wavers, those who live in their own worlds, reject what is reality, and just are “radical.”
Yup, you’re still a feminist, even if you like football, giving oral sex, and shooting guns well. And you sure as heck can be a tender, loving, and caring feminist who sticks to his values and convictions. I’m not sure what you’ve been reading that would make you think that these things make someone un-feminist. I worry that your “values and convictions” are that you like a good fight and you like having sex with women. Part of being a feminist is looking at what you value and figuring out why you value it. Why do you like fighting with men so much?
I’m working hard not to take your dig at “2nd wave” radical feminists personally. For one thing, I’m not sure what you mean by “2nd wave” — if you’re saying that the feminists who were checking your privilege were doing so from an essentialist perspective (which I highly doubt, as that is not en vogue these days), then you’re probably right to disregard them. But it seems to me that essentialist feminists would agree with many of your claims.
If, however, you’re conflating radical feminists with 2nd wave feminists, then we have a couple problems. I identify as a radical feminist, and I think I have a pretty darn good grasp on reality. It may not be a reality that you have any experience with, being male and all (that whole privilege thing, you know), but I take offense to the claim that simply by being a radical feminist, I “live in [my] own world.” You don’t get to tell me or any other woman — feminist or not — what is reality and what is not. You and I have had very different experiences that have been deeply influenced by our sex and gender identities. For example, my students are likely to think that I will either be stupid or a caretaker or both when they meet me in class for the first time because I look like a woman; if you were to teach the same class, you would probably get automatic, unquestioned respect, and you wouldn’t be expected to do their work for them or be “nice” to them. This is male privilege. That’s just one example. Misogyny and sexism go a lot deeper than assholes in bars saying misogynist things.
Part of being pro-feminist is taking women seriously and listening to what they say about their experiences. By saying that radical feminists “reject reality,” you’re implying that we’re illogical and hysterical. These aren’t new, clever characterizations of women who have things to say that counter men’s experiences — in fact, I think this little caricature of the feminists who called you out on your privilege demonstrates a little unexamined, unquestioned misogyny. Careful there, your patriarchy’s showing.I like sex, I like beers, I like violence, I like football, and I still speak out on behalf of human and women’s rights.
I still fall in love I still enjoy wooing women (and I do -just not the right one), I still enjoy wearing my heart on my sleeve.
I love being the center of attention. I love power. I love being in control.
But I would never harm, objectifying, hurt, or deny women of their humanly rights.
Why am I not a feminist?
Again, it’s the liking violence aspect that disqualifies you from being a good representative of feminism. Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy you’re interested in speaking out on my behalf. But I — a woman who is a feminist activist — I don’t want a man committing violence against anyone on my behalf. As I and others said in that first comment thread on the “violence and feminism” post of yours, if you want to be seriously pro-feminist, if you want to work in the name of feminism and further feminism’s causes, you must listen to other feminists, especially the ones who are woman-identified. Otherwise, you’re simply reproducing the patriarchy and harmful masculinity that feminism is looking to change — and that is counterproductive, to say the very least.
Of course, you haven’t actively (physically) hurt women or denied them their rights. But have you thought about the indirect ways you harm women (and men!) by perpetuating the masculinity=violence stereotype?A girl I just spoke to told me one can still be masculine and “manly” and be a good person and a feminist and that I am an example of such.
I shouldn’t give a fuck what the 2nd Wave thinks. But I still need to give up male privilege, as it is how we pro-feminist males are supposed to act.
Actually, you might consider giving a fuck what other feminists think of your feminism. You’re obviously uninformed about masculinity and manhood with regard to feminism, and it is not to anyone’s benefit for you to disregard what other (probably more informed, more experienced) feminists think of you if you’re looking to join the pro-feminist ranks.What am I to do? What’s a guy supposed to do? If I give up masculinity, all that’s in me will be gone. I’d be left with no passion, no drive, no ambition. This is not because it’s what defined me as a man, but it’s because it’s who I am.
I want to be a man, but I still want to be a feminist.
I can understand not wanting to lose your identity (though as bell hooks says, it’s a privilege to have an identity in the first place). Again, feminism is not interested in taking your identity away from you. You can still be yourself, however you are, and be a feminist. All feminism asks is that you examine the choices you make and think about the impact your choices have on the freedom, liberty, and humanity of the women (and men!) in the world.
I am a feminist. I wear makeup. I watch movies in the theater. I eat out at restaurants. I know these things can be construed as oppressive of women: makeup is intended to make my face more “sexy” and “palatable” to men; almost all of Hollywood and most movies feed on and reinforce misogynistic and sexist (and other -ist) stereotypes; and most food in this country comes at the expense of women and minorities, especially when it’s processed and not organic or fairly traded. I know these things, and I do them anyway. I am a hypocrite. But we all are. The best thing we can do is try not to be hypocrites.
In your case, PFM, you can try not to be a hypocrite by being more critical of your choices, your priorities, and your desires. When you choose to challenge a misogynist guy to a duel (ugh, how ridiculous can this get), how are you reinforcing stereotypes about men and about chivalry, masculinity and “real” manhood? How are you making it more difficult for other men to be non-violent pro-feminists? How does your challenge contribute to a culture of violence and oppression? When you choose to watch football and contribute to the numbers of people who are watching misogynistic ads for beer on television, how are you helping keep the patriarchy intact and stable? Why do you want to be in politics so badly? Why do you want to be the center of attention all the time? Why do you love being in control? Why do you love power? Why do you love fighting and violence?
Honestly, why do you want to be a feminist?
You have a lot more thinking to do, PFM. I hope you get this stuff figured out in a way that works for you and that doesn’t work against the goals of feminism. Work with us, not against us. Good luck.
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18th-December-2007
Every man's got a devil...... So where's yours!!!!
Re: They're Turning on Him Already 
