This is a copy of a facebook conversation with someone I know from times long gone who I understood used to be sympathetic towards father's rights issues - until he went to University.

Originally Posted by Mr. M.

"I will say you assaulted me."
"But I didn't..."
"I don't care."

Road rage in Bath goes viral - video | World news | guardian.co.uk

Originally Posted by Miss J.

What the hell is the woman's problem?? Why does she not just accept that she was causing traffic and that people will be pissed off and want to report it.

She sounds terrified though haha.

Originally Posted by me

And feminists tell us false allegations don't happen..lol

Originally Posted by Mr. N.

What an idiotic and profoundly immoral woman for threatening to report him for a fictional assault. She's just giving more ammo to people who think women frequently lie about rape.

D'ya think Mr. N. might be slinging pot-shots at moi even though I hadn't mentioned 'rape' (we're talking about assault here, not rape)? LoL

Originally Posted by me

When studies from various sources indicate up to 50% of them are false, who needs more ammo? We need also to figure out which definition of 'rape' is being used. Some feminists use "drunk sex = rape (even if consensual") while others have a more realistic approach that most rational folk would agree with. Either way you look though, feminists always blame only men and persistently absolve women of any blame (even when they rape minors)... terrible, terrible!

Originally Posted by Miss J.

There is a huge amount of rape which is not reported, the 50% are likely to be only of those that are reported. If someone is actually drunk, they are not in a mental position to give full consent, having sex with a drunk person means keeping in mind they might just be doing it because they are drunk, people do dumb things when they are drunk which they wouldn't do otherwise. Feminists frequently do blame women for keeping up certain norms and stereotypes that damage other women. Women who falsely accuse someone of rape are scum and no real feminist would attempt to absolve them.The stereotype of a feminist and what is portrayed in the media is one that only blames men. Opinions like yours are why more people don't report rape, if they did the amount that are false accusations would be massively minimised in comparison.

Originally Posted by Mr. M.

To keep any debates intelligent and backed up, please put a source in brackets when making claims about certain statistics. Of course, we all know that statistics can more or less be warped and moulded to claim absolutely anything.

Drinking, consent and rape is a huge topic - and I don't think we have the time nor resources at hand to get into it over FB. We dedicated entire sections, seminars and lectures to this at law school. Whatever the ultimate conclusion I would suggest it is less an issue of what feminists claim and more about the legal system. If people have a problem with rape, they should be directing their concerns towards the legal system, not towards feminists. That's just misguided.

Originally Posted by me

Mr. M, I agree with much of what you say - but for me to ignore that feminism is the primary promoter of misandry (hatred of men) through misinformation and propaganda is like me telling you to talk to a banana about the bully in school. ...The fact is, feminists in powerful positions demand inequality (like your friend Zoe did) that give women power over and above men, Harriet Harman tried to enforce a policy to teach 5yr olds that boys are all abusers & girls are all victims. How is that not feminism when it is the most powerful feminist in our country doing it?

( see this link for refernce to Zoe - The UK grants anonymity for the presumptively innocent accused of rape, and the sexua )

Originally Posted by Mr. M.

Where is the source for this claim about Harriet Harman?
And let's assume you give the source, it checks out and what you have said is all completely legit...how does one woman's views convert to all feminists demanding inequality?

Rightly or wrongly, a lot of what I perceive you to be saying these days seems to be anti-women and anti-feminist. It makes me incredibly uncomfortable in much the same way I would be if the National Front were talking to be about how the white race are superior to all other races. There are so many statuses that have had nothing to do with feminism, or have had a tenuous connection and you've used it as an opportunity to vent your disdain towards women, and more specifically feminists. A case in point - when a lesbian couple helped save people from the shootings in Norway and you responded with something along the lines of "bet if this had been men it wouldn't have happened." A little off-topic I felt...

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions - I think freedom of speech is a great thing, but for goodness sake please back up what you're saying. I often wonder if you only see an anti-men agenda in so much because you're not looking at the bigger picture and you're only looking for an anti-men slant on things.

Are there feminists in the world that are horrible people with an anti-men agenda? I expect so, our world and the population is diverse enough that such a combination is bound to exist. But does the existence of one, or even several mean that all feminists are horrible man-haters? No. That logic makes as much sense as to say because some religious people commit terrible crimes in the name of religion they all do, and it's not as clear cut as that. In life, things are rarely clear cut.

This is not a personal attack, I just can't stand to see unsubstantiated claims and vague statements.

Originally Posted by me

Mr. M, please do me the honour of quoting me demonstrating misogyny (hatred of women) as you have claimed. From where I am stood, you are resorting to personal attacks that are deceptive and untruthful.

If you you go through your national and local papers or regional TV programmes or even visit your local Doctor's surgery, you will see "only women are victims" type propaganda. I simply point out that 90% of issues are a two-way street. While I agree that one woman (feminist) isn't representative of all feminists, there is no denying that when we see misandry in our society it is *primarily* with feminist propaganda behind it.

e.g. Only a year back, a new 'study' claimed that 50% of African men would rape a woman. Straight away my spidey-sense kicked in and I took an educated guess that feminism was involved. No shock when I discovered the author of the 'study' was a feminist. It was also no shock when I found the word "rape" was not once mentioned in the 'study'. Instead, she had interviewed a number of men and asked benign questions like "Would you engage in sex after giving a woman drinks?" and when a respondent ticked "Yes" she classed him as a potential rapist. This was practically the same trickery used by Koss who claimed 1 in 4 women are victims of rape, despite 73% of women stating they were NOT victims and some 80% still seeing their 'rapist'. But, these figures stuck regardless they were untrue and based on a misandric agenda of feminist 'research'.

I don't believe every single feminist is a man-hater... Of course not. But the radical man-haters are the ones leading the movement and the moderates sit in silence while their fathers & brothers & sons are being lied about.

Originally Posted by me

In the week Harriet Harman takes charge, yet another feminist initiative | Mail Online

"Pupils as young as five will be taught about the evils of 'wife beating' and the need to form healthy relationships.
The lessons are part of a controversial drive, unveiled today, to reduce violence against women and young girls.
They will include teaching boys that they must not beat their partners or any other female."
Obviously only wife-beating is an issue, no male victim is worthy of mention according to feminist propaganda, which would explain why in USA they have a law called "Violence-Against-Women(only)-Act", which specifically demands that funding ONLY be given to help female victims of abuse. Groups that support male AND female will be denied monetary support by VAWA. VAWA came from feminist 'research'. Granted, much of VAWA is gender-neutral, but the title alone demonstrates clearly where it is intended for and the funding (women-only) policies reinforce the mentality that ONLY women can be victims of a violent partner, which is not only sexist but entirely mythical of epic proportions.

http://goo.gl/O72QI
Page 12
"Amongst the boys and the girls there was not one mention of the role of the father throughout the discussions." - totally ignores that HH herself is one of the biggest reasons behind lack of respect for men (fathers) in this country.

Not to forget, this feminist who is adored & beloved by many 'moderate' feminists, has been publicly scolded for her deceptions about rape convictions and as well her lies about another feminist-favourite-fib, the so-called glass ceiling.

Originally Posted by me

"It makes me incredibly uncomfortable in much the same way I would be if the National Front were talking to be about how the white race are superior to all other races." - What a disgusting comparison. No where - absolutely NO WHERE have I come even CLOSE to suggesting men are somehow superior to 'women'... You use an underhanded and deceptive play on words to accuse me of claiming male-superiority and yet, if you look around, you would find it is feminists who frequently release articles and 'studies' claiming women to be superior to men. Yet, somehow, that not only manages to not offend you in the least, apparently, but doesn't even seem to register on your radar. What hypocrisy you hold, Mr. M! I thought you were better than this... I'm very disappointed, very.

Originally Posted by Mr. M.

Being offended is an incredibly negative emotion that achieves nothing. Disagreeing with something? Sure, but offended? That's far too invested in the negative.

Similarly in life we will all invariably disappoint people and we will also i...nspire and encourage people - it's when you're doing more of the former that you need to re-assess things.

Cool blog about us: Old friend gone pro-feminist - and it shows... - looks like we're being blogged about Mr. N. ** and Miss J.

Incidentally I'm not a 'pro-feminist' I'm just 'anti-unsubstantiated prejudice'.

Does "old friend gone pro-feminist" mean I'm now not a friend based on my ideas?

Originally Posted by me

Glad you corrected me on your 'not pro-feminist' position, I was most worried for you lol. And no, I don't mean "old" as in "former" i mean 'old friend' as in 'I've konwn him a long time'.

However, given the underhanded tactic you've used (comparing me to NF??? Seriously! that's low.) would be my reasoning behind distancing myself.

Originally Posted by Mr. M

I said *I* feel the same when you talk about women/feminists as I do when NF members talk about white supremacy. It's a comparison in how I feel and to read into it anymore is to, well, read into it further than intended.

Originally Posted by me

What is scary about that comparison, is it is one I've seen used many times by pro-feminists when attempting to discuss matters. e.g. I say alike to "Men should have equality with women under the law, so when a woman is afforded anonymity while accusing a (so far) innocent man of rape he too is given the same right as her." - a relatively typical response goes alike to "Oh you think men should be able to rape with immunity eh! What a Nazi minded individual." (paraphrased). Currently, as you will know, women cannot be accused of rape under English law... so we need equality there too. This is also defended by feminist groups who demand that only men can be rapists.

As far as your suggestion that I am unsubstantiated in my beliefs, I assure you, Mr. M, my beliefs are based on experiences through my life as well conversations with others. In my youth, I was very much pro-feminist and will happily point you to a post I made a while back discussing the why's and how's of my changes.

"To answer power with power, the Jedi way this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are."

-Yoda

What an annoying underhanded prick... Guess my allergy to lowly tactics is playing up again.

I like how he completely gave up the argument when you provided sources and instead just tried to divert the conversation into something completely different without even acknowledging the fact you made valid points, is his ego too big to admit when he's wrong? What a tosser.

To be fair to Mr. M, when he & I worked together he was very open-minded. While he denies being pro-feminist, he doesn't stand for any discussion that does not portray feminism positively and does the typical pro-feminist lie mistake of confusing anti-feminism with being 'anti-woman', which as we know is what feminists tend to a lot of in order to a) distract from the issue at hand and b) intend to put you in to a defence posture.

From where I stand, I think all that has happened is he has gone from being in the real-world to one of academic standing since his indoctrination education at University where, as we know from various sources, are now heavily gynocentric, often misandric and usually pro-feminist. Due to the heavy pro-feminist nature of academic settings of this day & age, I dare-say he has many pro-feminist friends. Many of them will no doubt be relatively moderate... for now, while they're still young.

He is also childless, to my knowledge. I suspect, once he has a child and things turn sour for him, he will re-evaluate his opinions. Who knows, perhaps he will be the victim of a false allegation and subject to the feminist demands of public scorn that is inflicted upon men while his accuser retains all privilege over him. Perhaps that might shake his apparent faith in feminism?

Naturally, I wouldn't want to see anything bad happen to him... seriously, I mean that. I have a lot of respect for this chap. He's intelligent (and he knows it, sadly, sometimes uses it to knock others down when he disagrees with them) and is a mostly well-rounded individual. It would be nice if we bumped into one another in the street to be able to sit & have a coffee with him or such. I don't hold any personal issues with him at all. However, I don't take too kindly to being misrepresented either.

Friends can disagree, especially about emphasis.

But efforts between them may need to be directed to finding similarities of view rather than emphasising differences and blowing them out of proportion.

Marx was right to challenge the distortions. But other people read and see a disagreement. More persuasive, friendly words could have done a better job.

The University today is a male-unfriendly place where constant messages bombard a chap. It is inevitable that a man's 'forward steps' are slowed by the pressures against him, and his friends need to be supportive.

(This is NOT an adverse criticism of Marx )

Originally Posted by Percy

More persuasive, friendly words could have done a better job.

I didn't detect any adversary from your post, Percy. However, I do wonder how I could have been friendlier to him?

Now, moving to Miss J's words:

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

There is a huge amount of rape which is not reported...

And this we know because..? Ahh, yes - feminist 'research' claimed it as true, so it must be. Feminist surveys, as I addressed earlier, have a habit of misrepresenting their data in order to continue demonizing men. If a feminist 'study' or 'survey' concludes that only 20% of rapes are reported, we need to know HOW they determine that there is 80% going unreported. Surely that doesn't sound too much to ask?

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

the 50% are likely to be only of those that are reported.

Likely or not - we don't know HOW feminist studies concluded that 50% (i.e. unreported) came from. If it was a Koss like 'survey' in which 73% of her respondents disagreed with her conclusion AND accounting that Koss herself later admitted to adding it up wrong... then it's an obvious lie not a very reliable method of gaining data and is blatantly bullshit not entirely reasonable to perpetuate the data as 'fact' when it obviously is not fact.

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

If someone is actually drunk, they are not in a mental position to give full consent, having sex with a drunk person means keeping in mind they might just be doing it because they are drunk, people do dumb things when they are drunk which they wouldn't do otherwise.

1) So, if a woman goes out with the intention of getting drunk - finds a guy she likes, chats him up, takes him by the hand (or other appendage) to her bedroom, helps strip him down, pulls him inside herself, jumps up & down on top of him - HE is still a rapist because SHE is drunk?
2) Or do you mean any person, not just a woman (as feminists tend to insist)? If you mean a man too, then why are only men being charged with rape when they're both equally drunk OR he is more intoxicated than he?

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

Feminists frequently do blame women for keeping up certain norms and stereotypes that damage other women.

"Feminists frequently do blame women for keeping up certain norms and stereotypes that feminists perceive as damag[ing] other women." - fixed. Just because a feminist says something, doesn't mean it is true. Usually, this applies to the feminist theory of 'teh patriarchy' and yet never have I as yet seen a feminist of any influence complaining about matriarchy.

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

Women who falsely accuse someone of rape are scum and no real feminist would attempt to absolve them.

Actually, many do. And most of them continue to demand that innocent men be punished via 'trial by media' while insisting the false accuser be given anonymity.

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

The stereotype of a feminist and what is portrayed in the media is one that only blames men.

Ahhh - so it's all a lie... None of us have ever met a feminist who genuinely does blame men? There is no feminist group that persistently blames men? Feminist 'studies' and 'surveys' don't continually blame men? Riiight - so it's everyone elses fault and not feminists fault themselves.

See, I knew it. I knew a feminist could do no wrong!

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

Opinions like yours are why more people don't report rape,

LOL, so fear of repercussions have nothing to do with it? Fear of people finding out have nothing to do with it? Fear for the children's well-being have nothing to do with it either? No, no, no! "Oooh that man over there MIGHT have a differing opinion to mine - ooooh I can't possibly report the rape NOW because of HIM and his different opinion!!!"

What a pathetic argument that is.

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

if they did the amount that are false accusations would be massively minimised in comparison.

Again, that ASSUMES the data from feminists is 100% accurate - which based on several previous rape data forwarded by them only to be disproved repeatedly - isn't likely, eh!

Originally Posted by Marx

Now, moving to Miss J's words:
Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1

There is a huge amount of rape which is not reported...





And this we know because..? Ahh, yes - feminist 'research' claimed it as true, so it must be. Feminist surveys, as I addressed earlier, have a habit of misrepresenting their data in order to continue demonizing men. If a feminist 'study' or 'survey' concludes that only 20% of rapes are reported, we need to know HOW they determine that there is 80% going unreported. Surely that doesn't sound too much to ask?

Many of us know it through our own experience or another's. (men don't report rape in prison and army, navy, airforce... too).

I don't think there has to be a winner and loser between men and women. Perhaps a group that's worked real hard to bring important issues to the forefront doesn't need complete destroying, .....just saying. The 40 years work feminists have done is being destroyed in just a few years and there's going to be people that will question their own morals, beliefs, ideas.

Likely or not - we don't know HOW feminist studies concluded that 50% (i.e. unreported) came from. If it was a Koss like 'survey' in which 73% of her respondents disagreed with her conclusion AND accounting that Koss herself later admitted to adding it up wrong... then it's an obvious lie not a very reliable method of gaining data and is blatantly bullshit not entirely reasonable to perpetuate the data as 'fact' when it obviously is not fact.

The sad part is that open minded people will listen to other people too. They will come to their own conclusion and hopefully a balanced one. You can't change people, only give them some more information and reasoning IMO.

Originally Posted by julie

Many of us know it through our own experience or another's. (men don't report rape in prison and army, navy, airforce... too).

I agree... I simply ask 'how' feminist 'research/surveys/studies' are performed.

Originally Posted by julie

I don't think there has to be a winner and loser between men and women.

Agreed, so feminist hate campaigns against men need to be ended so we can level-up.

Originally Posted by julie

Perhaps a group that's worked real hard to bring important issues to the forefront doesn't need complete destroying,

Destroy may be a bit hard, I'm not out to 'destroy' feminism - simply draw attention to the fact that it isn't honest.

Originally Posted by julie

The 40 years work feminists have done is being destroyed in just a few years and there's going to be people that will question their own morals, beliefs, ideas.

Then feminism needs to change direction. How about they stop focusing all their energy on blaming men for everything and focus on what they 'claim' to be about; equality?

Originally Posted by julie

The sad part is that open minded people will listen to other people too. They will come to their own conclusion and hopefully a balanced one. You can't change people, only give them some more information and reasoning IMO.

And isn't it just wonderful that people DO listen and make up their own mind

Originally Posted by Marx

I agree... I simply ask 'how' feminist 'research/surveys/studies' are performed.

But it doesn't matter. Already men count.

Destroy may be a bit hard, I'm not out to 'destroy' feminism - simply draw attention to the fact that it isn't honest.

Was any movement honest? Is any movement honest? Is any successful business free from dishonesty? Was Capitalism or communism honest? Were our own parents honest? Are we honest? No, we have never been because we see each situation needing a different approach.

Then feminism needs to change direction. How about they stop focusing all their energy on blaming men for everything and focus on what they 'claim' to be about; equality?

I don't think they should and if they do, it would be way too naive at this stage in human existence.

You are not the problem, different men are.


And isn't it just wonderful that people DO listen and make up their own mind [/QUOTE]

Am I reading your words correctly?

You are fine with feminism as a movement continuing to promote misandry?

Originally Posted by Marx

Am I reading your words correctly?

You are fine with feminism as a movement continuing to promote misandry?

I, like you, have meet strong feminists and I know, as you, that most are not deep down misandrist, just women who fought men who wanted dominance not of themselves, but another and don't like women to have autonomy because they fear the unknown.

I think, yes my idea, that you need to change as you progress.... just saying.

........

Hey, umm,. well done BTW. Wow, the changes in the UK are awesome. I don't expect great change easy cause the UK is much older in lots of social things than my country.

Originally Posted by Marx

Originally Posted by Miss J. from post #1
There is a huge amount of rape which is not reported...

And this we know because..? Ahh, yes - feminist 'research' claimed it as true, so it must be. Feminist surveys, as I addressed earlier, have a habit of misrepresenting their data in order to continue demonizing men. If a feminist 'study' or 'survey' concludes that only 20% of rapes are reported, we need to know HOW they determine that there is 80% going unreported. Surely that doesn't sound too much to ask?

Well, of course it's known how many rapes are unreported, just like we know figures for all things that are not reported. It's because people report that they aren't reporting things.

Uh, no, hang on, there's something not right there...

Originally Posted by julie

I, like you, have meet strong feminists and I know, as you, that most are not deep down misandrist, just women who fought men who wanted dominance not of themselves, but another and don't like women to have autonomy because they fear the unknown.

I think, yes my idea, that you need to change as you progress.... just saying.

........

Hey, umm,. well done BTW. Wow, the changes in the UK are awesome. I don't expect great change easy cause the UK is much older in lots of social things than my country.

Julie, you have a wonderful habit of talking but not saying anything...

Originally Posted by Douglas

Well, of course it's known how many rapes are unreported, just like we know figures for all things that are not reported. It's because people report that they aren't reporting things.

Uh, no, hang on, there's something not right there...

Ahhh - but of course!