It's a couple of months old but I found it quite interesting:

Madonna syndrome: I should have ditched feminism for love, children and baking

I never thought I would be saying this, but being a free woman isn't all it's cracked up to be. Is that the rustle of taffeta I hear as the suffragettes turn in their graves? Possibly. My mother was a hippy who kept a pile of (dusty) books by Germaine Greer and Erica Jong by her bed (like every good feminist, she didn't see why she should do all the cleaning). She imbued me with the great values of choice, equality and sexual liberation. I fought with my older brother and won; at university I beat the rugby lads at drinking games. I was not to be messed with.
Now, nearly 37, those same values leave me feeling cold. I want love and children but they are nowhere to be seen. I feel like a UN inspector sent in to Iraq only to find that there never were any weapons of mass destruction. I was led to believe that women could “have it all” and, more to the point, that we wanted it all. To that end I have spent 20 years ruthlessly pursuing my dreams - to be a successful playwright. I have sacrificed all my womanly duties and laid it all at the altar of a career. And was it worth it? The answer has to be a resounding no.
Ten years ago The Times ran a piece about my play Paradise Syndrome. It was based on my girlfriends in the music business. All we did was party, work and drink. The play sold out and I thought: “This is it! I'm going to have it all: success, power and men are going to adore me for it.” In reality it was the beginning of years of hard slog, rejection letters and living on the breadline. A decade on, I have written the follow-up play Touched for the Very First Time in which Lesley, played by Sadie Frost, is an ordinary 14-year-old from Manchester who falls in love with Madonna in 1984 after hearing the song Like a Virgin. She religiously follows her icon through the years, as Madonna sells her the ultimate dream: “You can do anything - be anything - go girl.” Lesley discovers, along with Madonna, that trying to “have it all” is a huge gamble. I wrote the play because so many of my girlfriends were inspired by this bullish woman who allowed us to be strong and sexy. I still love her and always will, but she has encouraged us to chase a fantasy and it's a huge disappointment.

More here:

Madonna syndrome: I should have ditched feminism for love, children and baking - Times Online

Yes. I see many women like this. They bought a line of bullshit, snorted it, and now they want their noses back..

Too late!!

Quote from haahoo

Yes. I see many women like this. They bought a line of bullshit, snorted it, and now they want their noses back..

Too late!!

I see women like this and it wouldn't surprise me if they committed suicide!

does she have more money than sense

they surface too late

she is over the hill and a great way off

money at least makes her comfortable

Quote from shaazam

does she have more money than sense

they surface too late

she is over the hill and a great way off

money at least makes her comfortable

For how long?
She is cracked, soon she'll be broken!!!

Here's an idea.

Maybe instead of criticising this woman and the hundreds like her who are (apparently) the only real voices of moderation in the gender war, we should be bloody well applauding her. Calling women like her 'broken' and asserting that she needs to kill herself are NOT ways of making the MRM attractive to the unwashed masses; we risk making the same mistake as the feminists that we so despise.

As a man raised by women (and an emotionally-distant, emotionally-abusive father) to exhibit the traits traditionally associated with femininity (or as a 'gentleman' as perceived by women - emotional neutrality, obedience, submissiveness, asexuality), and who has only recently discovered the damage that this has done to me (I'm an angry man with some major issues), I know EXACTLY how this woman feels.

As she points out, she was not fully informed in her youth of the possible side-effects of the 'I want it all, I want it now, I want it shiny,' method of approaching life, so my argument is that we CAN'T BLAME HER, in the same way as I can't be blamed for my lack of traditional masculinity.

Why?

Because neither of us was given the full information when we were young enough for it to make a blind bit of difference, and as any sane person will tell you, an individual's actions can only be judged by the information available to him at the time. Criticizing Zoe for her article is not unlike:

STRAINED ANALOGY WARNING!

Punishing an illiterate toddler after he tries to make ammends for pressing the 'launch nuke' button under the influence of one of his role-models.

I'm not comparing Zoe's mentality to a child, of course, but in both of these cases, the individuals concerned lacked full information. Zoe was pushed into 'grrl power' and my hypothetical toddler was pushed into pushing the button, both due to a lack of counter-arguments; Zoe presumably grew up in the decades when it was un-PC to admit ANY gender differences whatsoever.

And now, after she comes out IN PUBLIC to make her apologies, better herself, and try to save the next generation of women from making mistakes, and all that the 'MRAs' here can do is reflexively insult her and wish death upon her.

This is not the way that a good man treats a good woman.

Is it any wonder the men's movement is perceived badly?

Although I can already hear the cries of 'mangina!' and 'ban him' striking up; I assure you that an open mind does not a feminist slave make.

Well done to Zoe, and I hope she finds her fulfilment.

Dan

Quote from DanH

Here's an idea.

Maybe instead of criticising this woman and the hundreds like her who are (apparently) the only real voices of moderation in the gender war, we should be bloody well applauding her. Calling women like her 'broken' and asserting that she needs to kill herself are NOT ways of making the MRM attractive to the unwashed masses; we risk making the same mistake as the feminists that we so despise.

As a man raised by women (and an emotionally-distant, emotionally-abusive father) to exhibit the traits traditionally associated with femininity (or as a 'gentleman' as perceived by women - emotional neutrality, obedience, submissiveness, asexuality), and who has only recently discovered the damage that this has done to me (I'm an angry man with some major issues), I know EXACTLY how this woman feels.

As she points out, she was not fully informed in her youth of the possible side-effects of the 'I want it all, I want it now, I want it shiny,' method of approaching life, so my argument is that we CAN'T BLAME HER, in the same way as I can't be blamed for my lack of traditional masculinity.

Why?

Because neither of us was given the full information when we were young enough for it to make a blind bit of difference, and as any sane person will tell you, an individual's actions can only be judged by the information available to him at the time. Criticizing Zoe for her article is not unlike:

STRAINED ANALOGY WARNING!

Punishing an illiterate toddler after he tries to make ammends for pressing the 'launch nuke' button under the influence of one of his role-models.

I'm not comparing Zoe's mentality to a child, of course, but in both of these cases, the individuals concerned lacked full information. Zoe was pushed into 'grrl power' and my hypothetical toddler was pushed into pushing the button, both due to a lack of counter-arguments; Zoe presumably grew up in the decades when it was un-PC to admit ANY gender differences whatsoever.

And now, after she comes out IN PUBLIC to make her apologies, better herself, and try to save the next generation of women from making mistakes, and all that the 'MRAs' here can do is reflexively insult her and wish death upon her.

This is not the way that a good man treats a good woman.

Is it any wonder the men's movement is perceived badly?

Although I can already hear the cries of 'mangina!' and 'ban him' striking up; I assure you that an open mind does not a feminist slave make.

Well done to Zoe, and I hope she finds her fulfilment.

Dan

""..Zoe presumably grew up in the decades when it was un-PC to admit ANY gender differences whatsoever. ..."

certainly dykes always noticed gender differences they never have chased after men with lust in their eyes ha hahhahahah

i am sure it was not from any lack of men offerring to show her another way.. mind you, since so many men have been raised the same "wait till yourolder" way..

Doesnt seem to affect men so badly though eh?

I can't relate to Zoe entirely, but I can imagine what she might feel like. I hesitate to believe that listening to Madonnna's songs are the reason she chose a particular path in life. So now she's having regrets? Doesn't everyone- at some point, to some degree, regardless of the paths we've taken?

I guess I feel pretty damn blessed, actually. I had kids young. I've enjoyed raising them. I don't regret that. Now that they're older, I've enjoyed going back to school. Now I'm actually enjoying working in a field I've wanted to work in since I was a teen. In a way, I do feel like I've had it all, or done it all, realized my dreams. But....there is one thing that's missing from my life, and though it doesn't bother me very much now, my mom says it will bother me later. Like ten years from now. Maybe she's right. Or maybe not. Who knows?

If ten years from now I can look back with regrets on choices I've made today (and chances are I will), I'm not going to blame Madonna.

I'm going to blame the Spice Girls.

Tis the nature of women to often look back and think they could have done things different..

Very few women I have ever known have not regretted meeting me!

I can see your point, Dan, and agree she is one of many disillusioned women who could become allies.

However, she is also one of the huge majority who have sat by while men have been rubbished and society disintegrated, due to her complicity.

She has to EARN her way to redemption. She has to recompense.

Dan,

Although I see your point, I have no other way of reading your COMPLETE post as;

When women had the you-go-grlzzzz mentality and shit upon men, we were told that we were supposed to be understanding and modify OURSELVES.

Now she sees the err of her ways, we are <once again of course> being told that we are supposed to be understanding and modify OURSELVES.

When exactly are women told that it is they themselves, that might need to modify THEIR behavior for once? Why is it that men are always the ones that must modify everything to fit women's everchanging goal posts?

TMOTS

Thank you, Percy, for being once again the only one to come out with a cogent response instead of generic bile.

I ... agree she is one of many disillusioned women who could become allies.

I'd go one step further and argue that she, and the many women like her, are the natural allies of the MRM.

<rant>

My one overriding criticism of this movement is that the voices of moderation are (as ever) drowned out by the reactionaries, who then inevitably turn on the moderates in their own movement.

I contend that there's no better public image that the MRM could try to convey than a united male/female front dedicated to achieving genuine equality under the law, rather than a reactionary male-only organisation (which will naturally be demonised by the feminised media) that seems (even to me) to be mostly comprised of violent misogynists no better than the feminazis.

Read this thread, and the 'female office' one, then compare the logical fallacies, selective judgements and general hypocrisy to: http://www.iblamethepartriarchy.com, and you may see where I'm coming from. Twisty seems to be a very angry, bitter person, but reverse the gender stereotyping, and she might as well be a major contributor to the MRM.

To close this point; what better poster-children for the movement (alongside the men) than ex-feminists who now realise the mistakes that they made and are trying to correct them.

</rant>

However, she is also one of the huge majority who have sat by while men have been rubbished and society disintegrated, due to her complicity.

Agreed.

However, I'd argue that there are degrees of complicity.

The teenaged German conscript coerced into massacring the victims of the holocaust is, in my eyes, guilty in a rather different (and much less horrific) way to the well-informed SS man or the Nazi leadership.

I'd say that Zoe here is no more culpable than the conscript - and a conscript who regets his actions at that; to hammer her for her attempt to break the gender-programming as if she were die Fuehrerin (to all German-speakers, apologies, couldn't fine u-umlaut) herself is at best foolish, and at worst, damaging to the movement.

Hell, at least her eyes are open.

She has to EARN her way to redemption. She has to recompense.

Also agreed.

Would you agree with me when I say that she's started down the right path?


Dan

Ah, and after I'd gone and thanked Percy to the exclusion of all others. I'm a bastard.

Quote from themanonthestreet

Dan,

Although I see your point, I have no other way of reading your COMPLETE post as;

When women had the you-go-grlzzzz mentality and shit upon men, we were told that we were supposed to be understanding and modify OURSELVES.

Now she sees the err of her ways, we are <once again of course> being told that we are supposed to be understanding and modify OURSELVES.

When exactly are women told that it is they themselves, that might need to modify THEIR behavior for once? Why is it that men are always the ones that must modify everything to fit women's everchanging goal posts?

TMOTS

I disagree with your analysis, not only of my post, but of Zoe's article; allow me to explain.

Firstly, I disagree that the writer is saying that men have to adapt to meet women's needs regardless of what's going on. Maybe I missed something, but she seems to be saying 'I bought into feminism, it lied, now I'm trying to undo the damage'.

If I've missed something, please point me in the direction of the paragraph in question and I'll happily recant this statement.

Secondly, my argument in the post in question was more along the lines of "Attacking women who publically question feminism is a stupid idea," and "Said women are the natural allies of the MRM, ideal for making it more publically acceptable."

Again, point to a section of text that disagrees, and I will recant this statement.

I know women like to play the victim, that society encourages it, but it seems to me that this woman was a genuine victim of feminism's lies, and when she tries to admit it, she's jumped, and victimised on by the very people who agree with her. This not only re-enforces the warped feminist view of the world, but also risks alienating the more moderate side of the potential MRM membership.

Feminists would like everyone to think that anyone who believes in men's rights is an evil, an abuser, a paedophile and a rapist, and frankly, by treating Zoe's article as it has been here, we're not making it easy to destroy this illusion.

Dan