Alek, I didn't make assumptions. I described you the way things were and are now. The one making assumptions based on ifs and maybes is you.

It's not a backlash, it's just what you want - granting humans the unimpeded satisfaction of their impulses at the expense of closing them off from enjoying beauty, truth and goodness. What's the purpose of sex anyway? Because if I ignore completely the emotional parts, my shower head is better than most men at it and the emotional part is meant to keep me near a man with who I will have my offspring with. Your utopia is based on something that flies in the face of biology and reality. And sure, you might not commit to your female friends, but it's not like if one of them will have your children they'll end up any good.

And TOO is right. You love this system, you just hate it's consequences. Goodness, a functioning society and so on require something called DUTY. Not only responsibility, but duty. Evolution requires duty. Stop this Orwellian claptrap. If you think this is the right path, the consequences of it are the results of evolution and what I see is just a bunch of dysfunctional societies. Actually this is involution, not evolution.

By the way, I do agree that shaming people into things isn't the right way. Just like beating your child up for making a mistake isn't the right way to raise it. But to do away with a child's right or wrong system altogether is what you advocate, but in terms of adults.

Oh, and yes, the diet analogy is PERFECT. After a period of starvation and then binge eating, people get fatter, then do the starvation again and get fatter and fatter. This is how this civilization is retarding itself - each time there is a push against the irresponsibility and bad behaviors in society, they will happen more and the civilization will eventually be destroyed, just like that fat person will die from a heart attack.

Meadester, the solution is to do away with welfare completely, not to sterilize the people on it. TOO is right, just subsidizing abortion and birth control won't solve anything. The key would be the family of a person teaching them to be responsible and that each thing they do implies a sacrifice. This is what I had. I didn't talk to my parents about it and I didn't get free condoms or pills - here you pay for both pills and abortions. But my parents taught me that each action I take will have a consequence and that the best way to do something is being informed. I actually didn't lose my virginity to a popular guy on the backseat of his dad's car and I actually knew all the STDs and birth control ways before I had sex the first time. I had my slip ups, even though they were related to something bigger, but I never was pregnant and had an abortion or passed STDs around. Everything is a direct consequence of the way someone is brought up. For example, my grandparents made me wash my socks and underwear by hand when I was 4-5, even though they had a washing machine. I had to put all my things in order by myself. I actually learned something from it. My mother told me that in order to achieve in life, you have to be twice as good as the people you're competing with to offset women screwing their boss for a promotion, people with connections and so on. I don't know, when I look back, I realize how the way I was brought up created what I am now.

And by the way, the society in which I live is way less sexualized. Oh, and nobody sacrifices for the common good. You sacrifice because you have to face the REAL consequences of your actions and for your family. Nobody should sacrifice for society as a whole, that will benefit just from functioning families. By the way, I find it amusing that you find sacrificing for the common good something bad, but you'd get a vasectomy to start a societal trend. I guess that's bad only as long as it's against what you want for society as a whole. lol

TOO, I wasn't sure before, but I think you would be a great father. And Whites don't have the same issues as Blacks due to how the European civilizations evolved and how the values were exported in the Anglo-Saxon colonized places, for example like the US, Canada, Australia.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

Meadester, the solution is to do away with welfare completely, not to sterilize the people on it.

Doing away with welfare is a fine goal. But if you have lots of people left with children they can't support, you will have to either let those children starve, or take them away and place them in a foster home or orphanage, in which case someone else will have to pay for them. I think sterilization is a little more humane and a lot less likely to cause riots. Remember it is temporary, people could get the operations reversed when they show they are ready to have children emotionally and financially.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

TOO is right, just subsidizing abortion and birth control won't solve anything.

I didn't say it would. Here is what I think of subsidizing abortion: Feminists and the stupak amendment As for birth control, teaching people how to use it and reminding them that they are irresponsible when they don't is not the same as paying for it. Maybe it's not possible to get that message through to the masses, but its either that or stop people from having sex out of wedlock, and only when they want to procreate within wedlock. Which do you think is more likely to be possible?

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

The key would be the family of a person teaching them to be responsible and that each thing they do implies a sacrifice. This is what I had. I didn't talk to my parents about it and I didn't get free condoms or pills - here you pay for both pills and abortions. But my parents taught me that each action I take will have a consequence and that the best way to do something is being informed. I actually didn't lose my virginity to a popular guy on the backseat of his dad's car and I actually knew all the STDs and birth control ways before I had sex the first time. I had my slip ups, even though they were related to something bigger, but I never was pregnant and had an abortion or passed STDs around. Everything is a direct consequence of the way someone is brought up. For example, my grandparents made me wash my socks and underwear by hand when I was 4-5, even though they had a washing machine. I had to put all my things in order by myself. I actually learned something from it. My mother told me that in order to achieve in life, you have to be twice as good as the people you're competing with to offset women screwing their boss for a promotion, people with connections and so on. I don't know, when I look back, I realize how the way I was brought up created what I am now.

It would be great if every family was like that, but what should we do until they are?

Meadester, you will get riots and problems. It's inevitable. And the bankruptcy of welfare states as they destroy their resources and accumulated capital is as inevitable as the destruction of society if these things aren't reversed. Sure, it's not an easy decision and yes, people will suffer. But this is the way in which people will suffer less.

This is what people said when out of wedlock pregnancy was 10%. If you don't subsidize it, you will have children starve and so on. Now it's around 40%. Did they take the easy decision or the hard one that actually solves things? I think it's fairly obvious. You realize that your solution is replacing a family structure and societal pressures with forced sterilization?!

And I have no problem with teaching people about birth control. I actually worked as a volunteer to do that and yes, it's funny when you put condoms on bananas. That won't solve the problem. As someone who did this, a class isn't going to make someone learn things and be responsible about them.

By the way, my family wasn't like this because they chose to be like this. They are like this because they had to be. My mother didn't work full time and did house work in the same time, de facto acting like a person who has two full time jobs because she enjoyed it. And my father didn't do a lot of the things he did because he liked it. They sacrificed their social life and a lot of health and free time to raise me and my brother into functioning individuals and yes, they didn't outsource parenting to the state. By the way, I'll describe you how housework is in communist places - you wash things by hand mostly, no dishwashers and so on. To be honest, I hope I will be half the woman my mother is and I hope that I will raise my children properly. So no, you can't make all families like this, while condoning out of wedlock pregnancies, welfarism and so on. Things are intertwined.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

You realize that your solution is replacing a family structure and societal pressures with forced sterilization?!

I don't care if you disagree about my idea for sterilization but please stop calling it "forced." Force is holding a gun to someone's head, or threatening to shackle and imprison people if they refuse your demands. Not giving people money that wasn't theirs to begin with - that you yourself, RV, think they shouldn't get anyway - because they do not agree to a certain condition is not force.

Also, I am not against a family structure and societal pressures. I would just prefer the pressures be along the lines of "be responsible for what you do" rather than "just say 'no'." I am not saying the "just say 'no'" is what you advocate, only trying to make my own position clear.

Quote from Meadester

I don't care if you disagree about my idea for sterilization but please stop calling it "forced." Force is holding a gun to someone's head, or threatening to shackle and imprison people if they refuse your demands. Not giving people money that wasn't theirs to begin with - that you yourself, RV, think they shouldn't get anyway - because they do not agree to a certain condition is not force.

Also, I am not against a family structure and societal pressures. I would just prefer the pressures be along the lines of "be responsible for what you do" rather than "just say 'no'." I am not saying the "just say 'no'" is what you advocate, only trying to make my own position clear.

That part with everyone being sterilized and having the procedure reversed sounded like using force and I wrote my post as I read the thread.

Still, you realize the costs of tubal ligation and vasectomies for everyone that would want welfare? And then the costs of having them reversed? That pretty much is a whole decade of welfare.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

That part with everyone being sterilized and having the procedure reversed sounded like using force and I wrote my post as I read the thread.

Still, you realize the costs of tubal ligation and vasectomies for everyone that would want welfare? And then the costs of having them reversed? That pretty much is a whole decade of welfare.

OK. It was just an idea I threw out there. I'm not committed to it. Under my proposal, though, they would have to pay for the reversal themselves - remember that would only come after they proved themselves financially responsible enough to support children.