Quote from Percy

I Agree, Chev.

And when someone comes here, uninvited and not frog-marched in, and says "Whoops, I am sorry I said that", our response must be "OK, apology accepted, now lets talk some more".

Percy, I agree with your sentiments on this and I believe I understand why forgiveness is important for fostering dialogue. I am also willing to admit it is my failing that, when someone apologises, then continues to do the very wrong for which they apologised, I cannot find it in my heart to believe their apology is anything other than an attempt to avoid consequences. I am not judging you or your intent, only what I believe is the dishonesty of Karvunidis. Perhaps in time my belief will change.

Next time a feminist turns up in Antimisandry, what I can do is leave the conversation to those who believe her, thus I will minimise the harm my presence causes. I think this will meet you in the middle without either of us needing to compromise our beliefs.

Peace.

I think if we don't forgive their will be no reason to seek it. Nobody will bother changing if they think they are condemned already. We have to realize that sexism against men doesn't exist because people are evil, it exists because they are ignorant. People will learn right and wrong based on how society reacts to their actions, not from deep reflection. Most people are not philosophically inclined. If these behaviors and attitudes against men are never reacted to negatively, then people will never realize they are wrong. What we need is consciousness raising. Create awareness of our viewpoint. People need to hear it before they can agree with it. To be honest most men are ignorant of their situation, how can we expect women to care when men don't? Consciousness raising is necessity. Pose questions, try to get people to think. Then let them think. When people apologize we cannot get into frets about their honesty. We don't want to act like the feminists we seek to expose. The idea is to try to reach people, like Jenna, who are willing to learn. If you are just out to rage at people, you pretty much are feminists, just the male version. THAT is NOT our goal. It is to end misandry, and the first step in doing that is in making people aware that it exists, by explaining to them how their views are clearly sexist against men. And allowing them to reflect, and change their minds. Like Jenna. Who knows if she is sincere, maybe she is maybe she isn't, her apology was a hell of a lot more sincere that Osborne's on The View was. (her apology was fairly decent though) The MRA movement is not a crusade against "Jenna". I suggest consciousness raising as the goal, if you see sexism on blogs or articles, simply state that it is sexist and explain why, and give counter examples to put the woman in a mans shoes. The long term victory cannot be undermined by personal squabbles with every blogger who says something misandric, especially bloggers who have apologized and removed the misandric post!

Uggh -.- these women never know how to back themselves up

Quote from Unregistered

I think if we don't forgive their will be no reason to seek it. Nobody will bother changing if they think they are condemned already. We have to realize that sexism against men doesn't exist because people are evil, it exists because they are ignorant.

I believe in taking each case on its own merits. In this case the bigot (a) admitted she knew she was a bigot and (b) stated she had no problem with her own bigotry. I don't believe ignorance is an excuse in her case.

Quote from Unregistered

The idea is to try to reach people, like Jenna, who are willing to learn. If you are just out to rage at people, you pretty much are feminists, just the male version. THAT is NOT our goal. It is to end misandry, and the first step in doing that is in making people aware that it exists, by explaining to them how their views are clearly sexist against men. And allowing them to reflect, and change their minds.

I agree, if Karvunidis had then stopped making bigoted comments once she made her apology. But she didn't. That is the crux of my disagreement with Percy, I understand the need to forgive but not if I believe an apology is just a tactical manoeuvre. My simplistic example is as follows:

Bruce, you are a bastard. I'm sorry I called you a bastard, Bruce. Did I mention Bruce is a bastard?

That is the pattern of Karvunidis' posts on her blog so far. She is still making misandrist comments but somehow its okay since she apologised.

In Australia, it is known as a "Clayton's Apology", the apology you have when you are not having an apology..

Quote from Jenna

Hi guys, your favorite person Jenna here! I'll wait for the applause.

I sent a similar message to Paul Elam and another member at another website and I'd like to address your community here.

Please help me to make this right with MRA. My original post was misguided. Worse was my initial reaction to harsh criticism. I just jumped with my gut instinct to fight fire with fire. Out of the blue my mom blog was pounded with stern comments pouring in so fast the server couldn't keep up. I freaked out in real time because I felt ambushed. It was a mistake I regret.

I was unaware the people calling me a bigot had a broader message. I have since learned so much about MRA, a world view I had honestly never considered. To think I was perpetuating hate against a group sickens me. I am so sorry.

I do still prefer gender-assigned bathrooms, which includes children, but if anything just for personal privacy like adults are afforded every day. Some may argue public places should have non-specified gender bathrooms but have you guys smelled the mens room? Kidding! But seriously, many people are not ready for that. (Family bathrooms are of course nice!)

Please try to be in my shoes. This is my first baby, the volunteer dad in class the day I had to drop her off (the day my blog post was about) was a COMPLETE stranger to me. I couldn't even see his face. I had met all the moms and teachers before the school year started, but not all the dads. Not him.

For the record, I NEVER suggested removing the dads from class. I never addressed who should take the boys to the potty simply because I don't have a son and the only child I had an opinion about was my own. I don't get into other peoples' business like that. When I blogged about my experience it was just that - my experience, just like I blog about apple pies I make and crafts my kids do. Who cares but me? (Btw, I have removed all images of my children from my blog and any posts about my family life. It's sad, but the truth is I was absolutely WAY too trusting of the world before this debacle. Ironic, huh?)

The reason the school made a policy change was because no protocol had ever been in place. They told me upfront they would not and could not make a rule about which gender could take which child to the bathroom. I did not ask them to do that , but they did mention it anyway. Nearly every preschool has some kind of procedure in the bathroom with kids - sometimes it's a rule of threes, or that the caregiver must be visible from the classroom etc. This is all the school is doing. Just aligning themselves with similar institutions. I think they have done an excellent job of being fair.

Please allow me to make this right. I am more than willing to write a sincere apology on my blog, highlight the MRA movement, post different stats and even make a donation to the cause.

Please know with all sincerity I never meant to harm anyone.

Jenna

That apology was complete fake.

"...with my gut instinct..." < Her gut instinct is that men are bad.

"...a world view I had honestly never considered." < Because she's a misandrist so overlooks and personally commits crimes on men.

"...but have you guys smelled the mens room? Kidding!" < No, she's not. Prejudiced people like to say what they really think, do, etc. and then pretend it's just a joke. It's very cliche. It's about forcing people to hear their hateful messages and preventing them from saying no, in hopes of converting/influincing them. A rape of the ears and brain, if you will. That if you don't play along with their offensive "humor," you must lack a sense of humor, be robotic, and therefore you must be the true psychopath... But, the psychopath is the one telling the "joke."

"(Family bathrooms are of course nice!)" < Her implication is, "because women are using them, and they are therefore cleaner by default, because women are somehow all cleaner than men, and because men using a restroom also used by women must be being cleaner than usual for appearances." And, the second part of that implication in turn implies that men all seek to lie about themselves to women to get laid.

"I had met all the moms and teachers before the school year started, but not all the dads." < That is incredibly unikely, unless she went out of her way to meet all of those people. And, if she's going out of her way to meet people to begin with, then not meeting the dads was a conscious decision. She assumed fathers would never volunteer, and that she would therefore never need to meet them in her quest to meet all people who might be around her child.

"For the record, I NEVER suggested removing the dads from class." < This and similar claims, I just plain don't believe. Even when she is trying to pretend not to be a misandrist, she makes it clear she is one. So, the odds are that she did precisely that, ask for fathers to be removed, hince the school responded saying not to fixate on men like that. Remember... I already pointed out her own words clearly indicate she did not expect men to be volunteering. In her head, it is unnatural for men to care for children.

"...the only child I had an opinion about was my own. I don't get into other peoples' business like that. When I blogged about my experience it was just that - my experience..." < Precisesly, you don't think about anyone but yourself, and people like you rate other people's matterings by how similar and close to you they are, puting men at the bottom of the list, because you clearly think men are your utter opposite.

"Btw, I have removed all images of my children from my blog and any posts about my family life. It's sad, but the truth is I was absolutely WAY too trusting of the world before this debacle." < She still thinks you guys are perverts, rapists, murderers, etc. for being men who touch family subjects. AND< she wants you guys to know she's onto you, onto her IMAGINARY versions of you who are out to get her and her daughter.

She goes on to try to point blame at the school. 'Oh, no! It was THEM! I swear! Bad them! Bad innocent school! It's all on you that I'm a crazy whack-job!'

This is ridiculous. This woman is a hardcore misandrist, and a complete phoney, as they all are. They are psychopaths, you dolts, they LIE. Do not buy into her apology. It doesn't carry a shred of apologetics in it.

This is ridiculous. This woman is a hardcore misandrist, and a complete phoney, as they all are. They are psychopaths, you dolts, they LIE. Do not buy into her apology. It doesn't carry a shred of apologetics in it.

That's a good point and a good reminder, thanks.

Check out this little gem I uncovered on I-Village Wedding 12 days ago - HELP! Baby drama - iVillage Message Boards - 107131716
where JMK wrote under the name 'velvetminxx'. She removed the post (presumably because she knew her comments would be searched), but another poster copied/pasted her most disturbing comment:
velvetminxx
iVillage Member
Posts: 6,084
Registered: 03-26-2003
See my iVillage Profile
Wedding 12 days ago - HELP! Baby drama
3 Posts 08-24-2007 10:30 AM
DELETED.
Edited 8/24/2007 5:54 pm ET by velvetminxx

"My husband is my puppet & he's starting to grow a backbone & make his own decisions. How will I get him to be my sugar daddy again? Why do I have to wait for things? Doesn't he know that a princess never needs to ask, everyone should just know & do what I want!"

The woman is a psycho bitch. Have you seen the shit she writes? She's a phony, a bigot and a bully. Her posts prove that.