Thread: Are strict gender roles too restrictive?

These kind of "should" questions and poll-taking are kind of meaningless, in my opinion. It amounts to jockeying for the moral high ground, which is what women spend a lot of time doing. Notice that it doesn't actually resolve anything, or substantially influence anything. It's simply meant to validate the asker's preconceived opinions (either that, or it helps the asker develop an opinion). It's a talkie-talkie-talkie-talkie-talkie woman conversation. Endless chatting with no resolution, and in a few days it will be forgotten no matter what consensus (or catharsis) was reached.

This kind of blather sure does bug me. Sorry if I have offended some of the women-folk here, but I call them as I see them. You're the chatty sex.

Quote from TERA

Why should housework and parenting be considered "women's work" and the business/working world only a men's domain?

What's wrong with sharing the responsibilities of parenthood, home-making and provision of income?

Is it that it causes households too much confusion and/or conflict? Or is the confusion/conflict caused by those unwilling to compromise with one another in order to find a working balance within the family unit?

Actually I'm not a supporter of "rigid" gender roles -- I think that's for each couple to work out for themselves.

However, I will note the following observations:

For couples with children, you basically have three options: (1) mother stays home, (2) father stays home, (3) neither stays home. Option (1) generally follows more traditional roles, by design -- that's the idea of option (1), because the mother is not working outside the home. A significant number of couples choose option (1), even today, at least during the years when the children are young. Option (2) is still quite uncommon today, for reasons I'll address below. Option (3) is the most common, especially once the children are beyond their tender years, and it's in option (3) where conflicts arise.

In virtually all homes other than option (2), a greater portion of the child care is done by the woman. This is, in my experience, still the case at the present time mainly not because the men impose this on women (most contemporary women won't accept anything imposed on them by their husbands, to be honest, certainly not if cast in so many words), or because they refuse to participate, as is often supposed, but because the majority of women *prefer* that they do most of the child care, believing that they are better at it, or simply want to do it so that they can control how it is done. This is the case even in most homes where fathers are quite actively engaged in raising the children. I do think fathers should be much more engaged in their children's lives, and in fact this is what we have seen happening in many of those families that remain intact. But even in these cases, the women do more of the child care, often by choice, and this is the case even in situations where the mother works outside the home. Much of the griping from women about household division of labor does not relate to child care, in the strictest sense, it mainly relates to so-called "housework", which I'll address below.

I have also known a few homes where the father is a stay-at-home-dad. Most of the situations I have seen like this have not worked out -- not because the father was a poor caregiver, but because over time the woman in the situation lost respect for the guy because he was not "pulling his weight". Women, by and large, are hypergamous, meaning that they are attracted to mates of higher status, etc. What I have seen happen in quite a few of these cases I have known in my own life -- as well as what I have seen in various articles and so forth over the past several years -- is that over time women grow unattracted to their husbands and resentful of them if they are stay at home dads. So while this may work for some couples, if the woman is okay with not having an alpha mate, in many situations it leads to marital problems. It's kind of a textbook example of the law of unintended consequences -- here an arrangement specifically to benefit a woman, yet ending up unsatisfactory for unpredicted reasons.

The remainder of the tension relates to "housework" -- cooking and cleaning and repairing -- for option (3) households where both parents work outside the home. In my opinion, the best way to sidestep this issue is to outsource at least some of it -- cleaning services are not expensive for many dual-income couples, and if at all affordable, it can go a *long* way to diffusing tension about who does the dishes and who cleans the toilets. It's my experience that a tremendous amount of resentment can build up in women about these issues, and this is needless, in my opinion. Having said that, I've also noticed that at least some women are not happy with the way that either their husbands or the outsourcers actually *do* the housework, because it isn't done exactly the way she would have done it -- surely in these cases, there is room for discussion and compromise.

co-operation is the key to any succesful relationship-it doesn't matter who does what ,imho

Novaseeker, Outdoors- interesting insights- thanks!

I, too, think that women should ease up quite a bit on the men in their lives who are actively trying to help with child care and housework. Women often complain that men don't do enough...but it's been my observation that those who really are making a substantial effort sometimes get criticized to no end on their performance...which isn't very reinforcing or reassuring. So who cares if he does things differently...who cares if the diaper is on crooked (lol!) or the dishwasher isn't fully loaded when he turns it on...he's trying...and often he's doing so at the end of his long day at work...and that deserves some major credit and a whole lot of respect.

I have no problem with people asking questions.

It has always been an issue with people that either the fundemental questions are not asked or the wrong ones, the too-easy ones, the ones where we already have an answer that we prefer are.

By the time a person gets to be 18 or so, fully 95% of the ideas in his or her head are other people's ideas. Hardly anyone has an 'original' idea initiated by their own experience. The situation has become worse with 'universal' education where children are spoon fed crap. And those that get to an original one by themselves immediately seeks confirmation from others. 'Roles' are accepted as givens without anyone asking 'Why?'. With a bit of luck and a fair few kicks up the arse, a person might get to 85% by the time they are fortyfive. But it is rare.

The roles we have for man and women are largely predetermined by our own reluctance to think of better ways. If there is anything we can learn from modern feminism it is that the old roles don't work. It is far too 'one-way' and the giving gender, the men, have their sacrifices and generosity thrown in their faces.

Blinders Blinders Everywhere - and Never a Moment to Dust...

As performed by modern Gender Feminists the so called shared 'housework' scam is just another form of Misandry, one which doesn’t just devalue Males but simply turns a blind eye to the real work they have always done.

Historically - people didn't split roles because of some 'rigid' code of gender, but based on the simple logic of survival. Pregnant Women make better prey than hunters (soon I will start a thread on Menstruation as relates to the Male / Female dynamic - and the historic influence of this taboo subject on the world) - and Women engaging in activities that lead to miscarriage is a sure way to lower the population count.

I know that in the modern world of 'too many people' (another subject entirely) the notion of sustainable populations is not one considered much, but in olden days (pre -20th century and particularly previous millennia), population growth was a major indicator of the health of a society. Regardless of whether it is hunters for protein, or workers for the fields, or soldiers for the defense against marauders (one way dysfunctional societies kept power was through ‘shopping’ in others for their basics) - Men were needed to do more than just commute to an office.

Likewise - given the Facts of Human Gestation (Women Gestate for @ 9 months and usually produce a single offspring) combined with historical rates of Childbirth Death and Infant Mortality - anything that interferes with the success of this process is a grave threat to the whole of society. Hence, work that allowed Women the Relative safety and ease of the home was a benefit to the whole, and not just a role they were ‘assigned’ to because of status. Of course this necessarily implies that Men and Women were Complimentary Partners in Life and Family – and Not Antagonists in the Gender Wars of Modern Feminism.

Up until the later part of the 20th Century this mutual dependence was simply an obvious and accepted fact of life for all but the wealthiest, who could afford servants to cook and feed them. Men must need work during daylight in order to bring the basics of sustenance to the home, and the division of labor that led women to cook and clean (something that did not endanger Gestation as much) was simply a Sharing of Duty towards the whole – that was necessary to the success of the undivided whole of the Family.

With the advent of modern markets / frozen & take out food… the need for someone to invest the time in cooking (wood fires, scratch recipes, constant attention to the process…) has diminished to the point where it is more of a luxury to have home cooked meals than a necessity. Likewise with basic household hygiene, which required a lot more attention before vacuum cleaners and anti bacterial sprays (anybody remember ‘brooms’, beyond Halloween that is?) have changed considerably. So too with tasks like doing laundry, which used to require a lot more effort than loading the washer and turning on Oprah until the cycle finished.

Hence – The Old Dynamics of Housework have changed greatly, but the outside work needed to pay for it haven’t done so as much. To say that Men don’t share in it is in many respects to say that they are not sitting on the couch watching “Soap Operas” (a function of the intersection of modern TV and Washing Machines) while the utilities the worked to buy are busy.

FURTHERMORE – Men do Much Work that is rarely included in the Feminist / Women’s definition of ‘Housework’ – Such as Changing Oil and other Mechanical / Repair Jobs that Require Special Knowledge and Skills (which may take years of study and effort to master), Handling the Dirty Jobs (from garbageman to bug killer and beyond), yardwork and other outside in the elements tasks… and the list goes on. Rarely do I see such contributions mentioned in the lamentations about housework sharing.

In addition, with the time and labor saving devices now available to Women – much of what passes as Housework is actually either busywork or simply arts and crafts. Most married couples I have seen live in a house that is decorated by the Woman, according to her tastes (how many Men sleep in frilly pink boudoirs designed by their Wives – versus the Masculine Bunk House look), and many Women often invest much time in dusting and cleaning the “Museum’ (as the front room / parlor is often referred to by bachelors) – and call this Necessary Housework that their Husbands Fail to Share.

If making dollies and drapes and all the ‘nice’ frills of the modern nest is to be counted as Housework – then indeed Men are Slugs. However, if one strips the job to its Essentials (Children, Hygiene, Meals, Maintenance, Repairs… and the Funds to support them), then I submit that Men do their Share, and possibly more.

Soooo… Boyfriends / Husbands changing oil may be a trite example, but the underlying savings to the budget all wind up somewhere… And if that somewhere is Female Foo Foo decorations for the nest - which then need to be regularly dusted if things are to look ‘nice’, then this does not IMNPHO qualify as grounds for complaint about shared housework.

But then I am a Bachelor – and really can’t be expected to understand much about such stuff anywayyyyy.

Ohso
Not merely the validity of experience but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. George Orwell 1984 On the Thought Police.

Copy/Paste from Novaseeker

Originally Posted by TERA
Why should housework and parenting be considered "women's work" and the business/working world only a men's domain?

What's wrong with sharing the responsibilities of parenthood, home-making and provision of income?

Is it that it causes households too much confusion and/or conflict? Or is the confusion/conflict caused by those unwilling to compromise with one another in order to find a working balance within the family unit?

I can only explain, how and why it is done in that style in our home in Tokyo.

It was always clear to us, that any household needs money. And my MAIN-job is to look after this urgently required money. This means in morning sometimes very early I am out of the house and often late in evening or even night at home again.

This sometimes even without being off on holidays, often far over 60 hours a week. Well, coming home finally I can rest - I am too tired anyway to do any house-wife-job after midnight like laundry or cooking...

For my wife the MAIN-job was always to look after the house, children, elderly care, and after my needs. This is a full-time job with 2 children, 3 old people and one husband.

Why should my wife work outside the house for money? And why should I do the housework? My wife will get maybe half per hour for a part-time job of what I will get for one hour overtime. So better I work one hour, than she works 2 hours...

My Japanese wife during the last 32 years was working only in case of an emergency situation. One time I was seriously ill over many weeks, one time I had to fight for 8 months missing salary, one time I was suddenly jobless, and my 2 daughters with their invoices from universities, over USD 3000,- per month.....

Now life is easy for my wife, I am earning more than ever before, my father is dead, her mother is dead and our 2 children are grown up and living in their own rooms. My work is also easier now, and I have long vacation every year.

Why should I do housework? Yes sometimes I did - when my wife was suddenly sick and my daughters could not come and help, and I did elderly care when my father was still alive, and I am doing all the repairing inside and outside the house etc. etc.

We are looking forward to retirement - some few years more. We had never any quarrel about money (a main reason for divorce) - I think, it is just a form of good organization, that everybody in the family knows, what are his/her priorities.

Feminism? Thank you - it's a useless and hateful movement.
Feminism was never in any way helpful for all of our family members.

Quote from yohan

We are looking forward to retirement - some few years more. We had never any quarrel about money (a main reason for divorce) - I think, it is just a form of good organization, that everybody in the family knows, what are his/her priorities.

An interesting perspective from Japan.

In the US, at least, while couples certainly fight about money, according to the couples counselors I've spoken with, it normally is not the reason for a divorce per se (although it does factor into how men and women plan for a divorce and relate to each other while a divorce is happening). In the US, it appears that most divorces happen because the woman is discontent for some reason, typically much more discontent than the man is -- generally that seems to be the case in most divorces, again according to the divorce professionals I spoke with during my own divorce.

Quote from TERA

Why should housework and parenting be considered "women's work" and the business/working world only a men's domain?

What's wrong with sharing the responsibilities of parenthood, home-making and provision of income?

Is it that it causes households too much confusion and/or conflict? Or is the confusion/conflict caused by those unwilling to compromise with one another in order to find a working balance within the family unit?

I don't think gender roles are that strict. It's whatever the two of you agree to. Everyone has different strengths and preferences.

That said, biologically, generally, men are more prone to killing it and bringing it home, and women are more prone to preparing, preserving, and serving it. Men are more prone to protecting the women and children, women are more prone to keeping the safe place cozy and welcoming.

It's just the way we are, Tera. There are of course exceptions, and if a woman has what it takes to lead, she should go for it. If a man has what it takes to make a wonderful home, he should go for it.

The problem is that women are encouraged to do so (whether they want to or not), and men are discouraged from doing so (whether they want to or not).

Gender roles develop according to social pressures. They are not "restrictive" unless forced upon folk?

NS explains that the "role" reversal does not seem to work very well in most cases, much as it often seems to be pressed by certain folk..

It can work, but I would suggest that there are risks in this approach because women, lovely creatures that they are, are forever looking for HIGHER STATUS males..

They will perhaps find these in the work place, and for the stuck-at-home "beta male" reduced to relying on his womans hand outs and housekeeping money, he will perhaps wonder if the kids he is raising are truly his..

Sending women out greatly increases the risks of adultery, though it may be the case that since many occupations are heavily feminised now.. (it may be worse!) Also, most women are not particularly attractive anyway, especially the working "landwhales"..

Oddly, it is well known in the primate world, that the "super alpha" males spend lots of time with their (and any other available) youngsters, just lazing around and playing, this lifestyle also enhances their health and increases their lifespan and status.. Its a low stress lifestyle for these higher status males..

However, there are not many silverback humans who have managed to prove their status, by OWNING the workplaces etc where the slavegirls are chained 9-5 while being able to hang round their own castles, know what is going on everywhere and maintain respect..

Most stay at home dads are just lazy buggers with little drive..

Most of them are not even the true fathers of their kids, or are living in someone elses home, either owned by the woman or (just as likely) the home she stole by legal theft off the kids real dad..

Quote from haahoo

Sending women out greatly increases the risks of adultery, though it may be the case that since many occupations are heavily feminised now.. (it may be worse!) Also, most women are not particularly attractive anyway, especially the working "landwhales"..

Yeah, it probably does that. Most adultery, male and female alike, happens with workmates or on business trips. That's pretty well known. It simply provides more opportunities, especially the road trips, because there you don't even need to worry about it being with someone in the office ... which can get messy. Be very worried about your spouse who spends a lot of time on the road, to be honest, whether you are a man or a woman.

I do think that if a woman has a stay at home husband and spends her days around high powered alphamales at work -- well, there will certainly be temptations on her part, eventually, I think. Whether anything happens really depends on the woman involved and her values and personal strength, but I've had more than a couple of guys tell me how shocked they were that *their* wife would do something like that, she was so loyal and so forth, etc. I think a lot of people struggle when they are put in a situation of temptation, and things are not what they would like at home, for whatever reason. People feel "entitled" to stray, and for women in particular, the emotional rush of being hotly desired can be quite addictive, and even moreso in the context of a marriage where the burning fires of passion have quite naturally cooled to a more normal level after several years of marriage.

Most stay at home dads are just lazy buggers with little drive..

I wouldn't call the ones that I've known lazy -- they do a lot of stuff. But certainly they lack the typical drive to succeed shared by many men. I think, in part, this is what eventually makes a good number of them seem unattractive to their wives. It's the driven, focused, determined persona that so many women find attractive in men, really.

Quote from John Dias

These kind of "should" questions and poll-taking are kind of meaningless, in my opinion. It amounts to jockeying for the moral high ground, which is what women spend a lot of time doing. Notice that it doesn't actually resolve anything, or substantially influence anything. It's simply meant to validate the asker's preconceived opinions (either that, or it helps the asker develop an opinion). It's a talkie-talkie-talkie-talkie-talkie woman conversation. Endless chatting with no resolution, and in a few days it will be forgotten no matter what consensus (or catharsis) was reached.

This kind of blather sure does bug me. Sorry if I have offended some of the women-folk here, but I call them as I see them. You're the chatty sex.

I thought the same when I first saw this thread, so I did not add to it..

However, some interesting ideas have come about from it, as often happens..

Women chat, but this chat can sometimes promote swapping of ideas..

Its "good to talk", and much of what the government do when they are divising ways to divide us is talk over and over in their parliamentary chat-rooms..

Quote from novaseeker

Yeah, it probably does that. Most adultery, male and female alike, happens with workmates or on business trips. That's pretty well known. It simply provides more opportunities, especially the road trips, because there you don't even need to worry about it being with someone in the office ... which can get messy. Be very worried about your spouse who spends a lot of time on the road, to be honest, whether you are a man or a woman.

I do think that if a woman has a stay at home husband and spends her days around high powered alphamales at work -- well, there will certainly be temptations on her part, eventually, I think. Whether anything happens really depends on the woman involved and her values and personal strength, but I've had more than a couple of guys tell me how shocked they were that *their* wife would do something like that, she was so loyal and so forth, etc. I think a lot of people struggle when they are put in a situation of temptation, and things are not what they would like at home, for whatever reason. People feel "entitled" to stray, and for women in particular, the emotional rush of being hotly desired can be quite addictive, and even moreso in the context of a marriage where the burning fires of passion have quite naturally cooled to a more normal level after several years of marriage.

I wouldn't call the ones that I've known lazy -- they do a lot of stuff. But certainly they lack the typical drive to succeed shared by many men. I think, in part, this is what eventually makes a good number of them seem unattractive to their wives. It's the driven, focused, determined persona that so many women find attractive in men, really.

Good post. Women are tarts these days and there is little to prevent them from jumping from tree to tree, they dont let go of one branch till they have hold of anoteher in these circumstances..

As for the stay at home dads, sure, they may do a lot, but child-rearing is regarded as a low status thing, an indulgence, its also probably something that most people would prefer to do if they had the ability to do so more than anything else..

To say someone is "lazy" in todays cultural context will include the man who is able to play video games for 50 hours without a break, because is the sort of thing that does not "produce resources"..