Hi af,

Judging by the IP addresses, I'm assuming you are the "A Feminist" that emailed me yesterday? Either way, welcome to the board.

I'm taking my time responding, as in short, I'm very busy atm, and it may take me a while to answer. I'm talking minutes & hours, not days & weeks.

Anyhow, I'm really grateful that you even read the FAQ and such, it makes a refreshing change for someone to do so - gender regardless

I'll be responding shortly, just not right this very moment as I'm still cleaning up the house (see, we fella's can do it despite the stereotypes).

Quote from Karl

Hi af,

Judging by the IP addresses, I'm assuming you are the "A Feminist" that emailed me yesterday? Either way, welcome to the board.

I'm taking my time responding, as in short, I'm very busy atm, and it may take me a while to answer. I'm talking minutes & hours, not days & weeks.

Anyhow, I'm really grateful that you even read the FAQ and such, it makes a refreshing change for someone to do so - gender regardless

I'll be responding shortly, just not right this very moment as I'm still cleaning up the house (see, we fella's can do it despite the stereotypes).

Yes, that's the one! I didn't know if to bother joining on here, in case I simply get a load of abuse... I didn't plan on joining when I emailed you, I wouldn't have bothered doing the two at one time, you see.

NP about response time, I'm making tea for my husband as it is right now anyway (being the good wife lol).

As for reading the FAQ, I truly believe that if someone criticises what I believe in, I have a duty to engage with that, no? Believe it or not I spent my Sunday afternoon and most of today reading through your site and its links*. Because that's the only way our opinions change and evolve, which mine have done over time, over lots of things. I've mellowed on certain things, become more vocal on others... it just depends. I wouldn't like to think I'm the type of person who forms an opinion and then sticks fingers in her ears to anyone with a differing opinion.... I know some people like that - and they're usually neither very interesting or well-informed

* Do you know your main site (the purple one with the menu bars) looks awfully strange in Firefox? (Win XP SP2, FF 1.5)

Quote from af

* Do you know your main site (the purple one with the menu bars) looks awfully strange in Firefox? (Win XP SP2, FF 1.5)

I'm using Firefox 1.5.03 and it looks "ok" to me... as it should, to the best of my knowledge. However, according to my logs, you're viewing it at 1280x1024 resolution, which it was not designed for.
The site was designed to suite MY laptop LOL, which is 1024x768x16m. Viewing it @ this resolution, it looks normal. I could easily adapt a new template to account for higher resolutions, but sadly my laptop's screen resolution only goes up to 1024x768, hence I could never actually see it unless i began stealing my wife's laptop frequently... which wouldn't be in my interests...


The above image (click to see full size) shows the appearance under 1024x768 resolution.

Ah, fair do's

Quote from af

I've no doubt that I'll be less than welcome here since I'm a self-declared feminist... but thought that I have nothing to lose by requesting more information on anti-feminism from the forum regulars. The worst that can happen is that I learn nothing of note (i.e. if you all tell me to bog off), and I don't get any further insight into what you have to say, which would be a great shame in my opinion (and an unfortunate waste of server space too). Especially after I went to the hassle of registering :lol:

You're quite welcome here, as long as personal boundaries are not broken and respect is a two-way street. Oh, and make us all a nice cuppa. White hankies are always welcome, especially during the winter months.

Quote from af

Karl states repeatedly that his site/this forum is not anti-woman. It's anti-feminist. This is even in the forum FAQ section, much to my surprise. Not knowing him (or any of you) in real life, I can only assume the assertion of non-woman-hating is an honest one; anyway, I don't think it would make for a very happy husband-wife/father-daughter/mother-son household should that be true, eh? It's too easy to villify the opposing side to your own beliefs i.e. should I state "pah! you antifeminists just all hate women" vs. you stating "pah! you feminists just all hate men!"... get the picture?

You've hit on a point I've asked many feminists to consider; that their 'truths' are equally ingrained as my 'truths', just because this is how it is. I'm not a worse person for being anti-feminist than they are for being feminist, but to get this across to some is a mission impossible scenario. With regards the 'anti-women/anti-feminist' situation, I've put that up because one of my outlaw relatives has abused her position in my life frequently, or had. I believe (note: this is my opinion only - not scientific fact) it comes down to her being a matriarch and authoritarian; she is not used to seeing a man having equal voice in a relationship and so tried to instil matriarchy within our marriage for her benefit, and my wife's. One of her frequent methods of silencing me was to express the site as being anti-woman, a shaming tactic to gain the upper-hand. It worked for a while, granted, but soon I realised this argument was being used over the most trivial of disagreements - and often entirely unrelated. But if she thought it would silence me long enough for her argument to 'win', then it would be thrown in. I noticed similar with some feminists, they would accuse the site of being anti-woman. Yet as I've stated in the pertaining thread, no one has yet managed to actually find a page that is specifically 'anti-woman'. Even my wife spent a good hour going through the site with the dedicated task of locating anti-woman material. Trust me, as others can vouch, my wife is nowhere close to antifeminist. And when we argue, if she had found material - she would have no qualms in bringing it to my attention. On the ivillage feminism board, I called a feminist on her claim and asked her to put her money where her mouth was by highlighting the misogyny she claimed to see. Two days later she replied saying that a photograph (of a feminist) my site had offended her so much, she couldn't bear to view any more pages, and hence my request (for proof) was denied.
This has been the case time after time, whenever an accusation is made, I ask for proof, they decline to supply any. The only exceptions have been on two separate occasions a quote from two forum members have been offered as 'proof' that this site/forum is anti-woman.

Quote from af

Or maybe your problem with feminism is a mix of #1 and #2? If so, please share

For me, it's both #1 & #2.
In short, feminism has openly declared war on families. They specified they want men (not boys necessarily) removed from family situations. By the enactment of legal loopholes that largely benefit women, feminism has almost acquired this situation. All a woman, any woman, need do is exaggerate an argument - and the man is barred from going near her as well as their children. She can run away for a week or two to a hostel, make up a story (which even when unbelievable - still gets accepted) for the sole purpose of hooking up with a new man, knowing that the children's father is barred from knowing where his own children are... Only recently have two (yes, count them - two) homes for men opened up to offer similar services. As i understand it, these homes are not sponsored by government in any manner, whereas the 400+ women's homes are given endless amounts of cash to support & sponsor the "legally enabled kidnapping of children". "Equality", as an individual word, suggests that it should benefit both men & women at equal proportion, or at the very least, to the degree required. However, feminism has not done anything positive for men. Not a bean. It has, however, done a lot of work to hurt men, the above (kidnapping children, dissolving family to their definition) being just the tip of the ice-berg. Feminists have openly (in radio/TV/magazine interviews, etc) laughed at men who have been sexually assaulted - would they laugh at a woman being kicked in the groin or a woman's breast lopped off in hateful revenge for suspected infidelity? Damn right they wouldn't. I have yet to see the average-feminist fighting for a man's right to have equal parenting time as well as responsibilities. I have, however, read of NOW members attending family court sessions to intimidate judges into handing over custody to the mother. I've not yet found a feminist who has spoken out against female violence upon men, child abuse by mothers or elder abuse by daughters. The list of inequalities goes on...and on...and on. Rather like the Ariston adverts...and on..and Ariston...and on...and on...and Ariston...
I believe it went wrong because radical man-haters, not true egalitarians, took control of the movement - as described by Erin Pizzey, whose name I'm sure you're well versed with.


(My fingers are burning up from overwork - IÂ’ll respond to others shortly)

seperately, I'm moving this from 'general chit chat' to 'feminist flipside', not to minimize interaction (as i'll be leaving a shadow in chit-chat), but rather because it is more appropriate, and hence not to be taken personally.

All good points af and BTW welcome to the board.

Since it's 1.30 am here and I just dropped in I couldn't do justice to all the pertinent points you present. They are worthy of response.

BUT if you seriously want to debate, (I hope I'm speaking for most members) we would have to look beyond matters 'as they are now'. Most of us believe that we live in times that have been subject to a long programme of social manipulation that makes the Russian Revolution look like a kid's tea party. There are some 'givens' or assumed norms that are not what they appear to be.

Sorry if this sounds cryptic. I'll get back when the sun rises.

Thanks for your input.

Quote from Karl

You're quite welcome here, as long as personal boundaries are not broken and respect is a two-way street.

Fair rules all round.

Quote from Karl

You've hit on a point I've asked many feminists to consider; that their 'truths' are equally ingrained as my 'truths', just because this is how it is.

I've had too many discussions with pro-life feminists to believe otherwise :lol:

Don't worry, I haven't been looking around the site specifically for anti-woman sentiments because, if I'm being totally honest, I don't really believe that any one person can be totally anti-[insert gender here] (broadly speaking)... be it feminists supposedly hating men, or men hating women... I mean, just think about the realities of that, if it were true... hate is a STRONG word to use. If you "hated" women, you'd barely be able to walk down a high street before exploding with rage. If you hated all women you'd have a hard time being served in shops, getting your lunch, going to work... never mind being a husband and father to daughters. Maybe I'm an optimist but I'd hate to think there was a human being so all-consumed with rage that they hated the ENITRE population of the opposite gender.

Quote from Karl

For me, it's both #1 & #2.
In short, feminism has openly declared war on families. They specified they want men (not boys necessarily) removed from family situations. By the enactment of legal loopholes that largely benefit women, feminism has almost acquired this situation. All a woman, any woman, need do is exaggerate an argument - and the man is barred from going near her as well as their children. She can run away for a week or two to a hostel, make up a story (which even when unbelievable - still gets accepted) for the sole purpose of hooking up with a new man, knowing that the children's father is barred from knowing where his own children are...

What would you say if I were to tell you that, as a feminist and woman, I sympathise with that? You make the mistake of assuming that all feminists are the same, which we're not. In fact, I've probably had longer and more heated discussions with OTHER FEMINISTS than any other group.

Specifically as a childfree feminist I like to think I'm a little separated from the children debate. As a feminist I completely advocate more involved parenting for fathers (which you might be familiar with -- remember my blog article that you commented on yesterday -- I don't know if you ignored or didn't read the sections about the Cult Of Motherhood??)

Quote from Karl

For me, it's both #1 & #2.
Only recently have two (yes, count them - two) homes for men opened up to offer similar services. As i understand it, these homes are not sponsored by government in any manner, whereas the 400+ women's homes are given endless amounts of cash to support & sponsor the "legally enabled kidnapping of children".

See above.

Quote from Karl

"Equality", as an individual word, suggests that it should benefit both men & women at equal proportion, or at the very least, to the degree required. However, feminism has not done anything positive for men. Not a bean. It has, however, done a lot of work to hurt men, the above (kidnapping children, dissolving family to their definition) being just the tip of the ice-berg.

Hm. I wouldn't agree with your assertion that feminism has done NOTHING for men. Take my own situation, which you're obviously unfamiliar with. My husband is a tradesman, and he hates it with a passion (yet, as with everything loves the money lol). 50 years ago he would have faced 40 years of mortgage paying for a wife to stay at home (because she had no choice) and however many kids came along as natured intended.

In 2006, I'm working hard at university so that my husband can do whatever the hell he wants with his life *whilst I earn the breadwinning money*. I'm going to be in the position where, should he want to work for a charity till the end of days, or if it makes him happy shelf stacking at Tesco, he can.. because I can earn my own money and be more independent.

I know for a fact that, whilst he's supporting me through my software engineering degree, he's hated having the "pressure" of being the only earner. There's the constant worry of illness, redundancy, having to work away... if I'd been stuck at home with kids, we would have had that throughout our married life.

Yet because of women's advancement, he AND I benefit. IMHO, of course That's a pretty personal example but wanted to show something real and tangible here.

Quote from Karl

Feminists have openly (in radio/TV/magazine interviews, etc) laughed at men who have been sexually assaulted

Eh?!!!! I don't doubt you on that, but find it despicable all the same. Sickening.

Quote from Karl

I have yet to see the average-feminist fighting for a man's right to have equal parenting time as well as responsibilities.

Here's one See the blog entry you commented on, and I quote:

"Yet the unwillingness by most women to let go of their stronghold in the home is revolting to me at times. Some women say, "we should be given the choice to be a SAHM OR an employee, and for my choice to be respected" -- fair enough. That's one of the things feminism is still to deliver. But can't we change that to say "parents should be given the choice to be a SAHP OR an employee, and for that choice to be respected"? It's the putting-Motherhood-on-a-pedestal (as opposed to "just" fatherhood) that I can't come to terms with. It seems hypocritical. Kind of like we've freed women from the kitchen, welcomed them into the workplace no matter how unresolved some of the issues still are... but men are still shackled to the office desk!
...
In today's society, I don't believe women can continue to claim a monopoly on parenthood, excluding the obvious giving birth and breastfeeding bit. Fathers should be just as involved in bringing up children -- mothers have to relinquish some of their hold on parenting if they want equal consideration in the workforce. It's only fair."

Quote from Karl

I've not yet found a feminist who has spoken out against female violence upon men, child abuse by mothers or elder abuse by daughters.

Well, I don't overly concern myself with abuse in general, not feeling well enough versed in that area, which others speak about far more eloquently than I. I would point you to this however. It's not related to abuse (because it's not something I blog about) but I hope it shows that I'm not as one-sided as some on this sort of gender-abuse.

Quote from Karl

seperately, I'm moving this from 'general chit chat' to 'feminist flipside', not to minimize interaction (as i'll be leaving a shadow in chit-chat), but rather because it is more appropriate, and hence not to be taken personally.

Sure, whatever works best. I had no idea where to post originally anyway -- I did consider posting in Introductions... but then thought what the hell the mod will move it if I choose badly anyway...

Yan Yan, yeah - that's rather cyptic, but I'm not at my best at 1am so can't say a word lol.

Karl: Also, about the abuse issue, I don't wish to state the obvious here because this might have been said a million times (ops but one further question I have for you is:

What is the scope of useful feminism, if there is such a thing in your opinion? Is it feminism's duty to tackle issues of women-on-men abuse (which I've no doubt happens)? Should women be fighting to prevent ALL abuse... or just abuse against women? If the former, isn't that just humanism - which any man can join forces with? Is this where by fourth area of questionning (the void of a non-radical-men's-movement) comes into play... is there a gap to be filled, which ISN'T being filled by the current feminist movment OR the current men's movement?

Greetings af

Despite being a feminist, you have entered here showing respect, therefore I will return the gesture, so 'hi'

Now, on to your questions...

af wrote:

Question Area One
The Wikipedia article states that there are 2 types of anti-feminist: #1 believes that feminism "is a destructive force to society and family life" and #2 believes that feminism is "now pushing for more than equality". Which do YOU believe?

Right, I wholeheartedly agree with definition #1, however, I have a problem with #2

In regards to #1- yes, feminism is a 'destructive force to society and family life', as, quite simply, the feminist-influence in western society has harmed men socially (rape-sheild laws/unequal health spenditure etc) and within the home (custodial rulings/domestic violence etc)

I also believe feminism is destructive becuase of it's suppression of male voices (politics/media/education), hence why the internet is the only way for this hateful ideology to be exposed fully!

In regards to #2- Well, that depends on your definition of 'equality'

Women were demanding the right to vote, yet were not required to make the same sacrifices as men to get it. See my article 'Women Never Earned Right To Vote' from my site (located in my signature at foot of page)

Also, feminists wanted the right to work, however, they were very selective about which jobs they wanted

Which is why you don't see many women in building sites or in garages!

No- any occupation that required a level of risk- feminists couldn't care less about that

They strive for work in comfortable offices, and, to add insult to injury- propell the myth that 'women get paid less than men', without accounting for danger premiums!

It was men, not women, who were discriminated and disadvantaged throughout history, yet we are led to believe that #2 is somehow credible- i.e. it presupposes women were once treated more unfavourably than men!

So, I would say that feminism never pushed for equality, and, if there were those that believed that, they were misguided

The feminists who were not misguided, and acted out of malice, never wanted 'equality', and have always pushed for more than equality, hence why we see so many men getting screwed over daily

af wrote:

Question Area Two
... which leads to, Are there any aims of feminism with which you agree?

No

All feminist aims are to make women a) unnacountable for their actions and b) to protect their rights at all costs

And it is men who suffer as a consequence!

af wrote:

Question Area Three
If you believe feminism to be an evil influence (whatever your reasoning above), do you believe its followers are naturally evil people, hell-bent on destroying men purely for vindictive sakes (and doing so knowingly)... or are they simply misguided? Both? Other?

It has to be both doesn't it

Society has been fooled by politics, educational institutions and the media for decades now, which, incidentally, are all feminist-led and dictated

So it is no wonder we have feminists who deliberately manipulate, and others who simply follow

Further, these people do not just simply follow, but fail to question feminist beliefs or the damage that this repugnant ideology has caused

af wrote:

Question Area Four
Are you happy with the level of provision the men's movement gives to men? (I'm talking UK-specific here, I have little knowledge outside of the British Isles.)

Whilst the anti-feminist men's movement seems happy to attack feminism's flaws (of which there are many), sometimes it feels like the Conservatives attacking Labour policy, and vice versa... without coming up with any solutions themselves. Thoughts on this?

To begin with, the men's movement is not helped in any way shape or form by:

the political system

the educational system

and the media system

The feminist movement was, and, indeed is!

So is it a wonder why you don't see a 'plan of action' as such out there for all to gawp at and admire?

Also, I resent the idea that there is no real 'direction' or 'solutions' proposed by men themselves

There are many

And they have been discussed on forums and within sites/blogs

I, as well as other antifeminists/MRA's, have frequently discussed the bias and ideas on what should be done

But these ideas are supressed beyond cyberspace by the political, educational and media systems!!

There are many ideas on how to thwart feminism

For example, I believe if the feminist-led media won't inform our kids on how men are downgraded in society, then we should

For example, when a child doesn't see his father for years, and, when told by a number of factors his father is nothing more than a 'deadbeat dad', is it fair to expect him to passively accept this?

No!

He should also be informed that whilst his dad wasn't around, he shouldn't neccessarily be held accountable

No- it should be the legal system, yes, the one that prevents many dad's access with their children, that should be held to blame

And let's not forget the mothers who exploit this biased system for all it's measly worth!

Anyway, I'll defer from ranting on this aspect too much, but, what I am saying is that many men are getting fed up by what feminism has done to them, and so choose to speak out against it

Also, I think that by increasing awareness and engaging in dialogue with other men is a) theraputic and b) a very effective way of spreading awareness, and, ultimately, will lead to more public protests

Not just for fathers rights

No!

But for a whole concoction of fields where men are discriminated against

Expect to see protestes on rape-sheild laws, false allegation penalties, equal health funding, equal work rights (yes- you did read right- for men!) to name but a few

If you have any queries about any of my assertions, here or elsewhere, feel free to let me know

Quote from af

Question Area Two
... which leads to, Are there any aims of feminism with which you agree?

For example (God forbid) if any of the females in your life were ever hurt in a gender-specific way (such as being attacked walking home one night), and then you found out that the police treatment of her case was handled in a non-acceptable manner i.e. counselling was not offered, the only attending male police officer seemed to have a laissez faire attitude... would you give ground on the idea that, as with all things, feminism can do good (improve victim support) as well as bad (make it easier for false accusations to be more leniently dealt with)... or would that be a non-feminist issue for you? I.e. they are separate things - mishandling by a police authority in such a case has no bearing on your opinion of feminism.

I've said before, and openly shared with the gentlemen & ladies alike, of this board that there are certain areas of feminism I have and do agree with. One of my recent examples of this is a thread where I stated that the old marriage vows were unfair "love, honour, obey" to women. This is something I agree with. That, credit due, is an equality issue, imho. It seemed silly in some regards, because I've yet to meet a man who actually falls back on it in any manner (silently or blatantly) and demands his wife obeyed his commands/demands/wishes/etc.
As with the above, I can relate. I have three daughters.
There was a time, way back when, I forget how it came to be - but there was a group of 8 kids (even mixture of boys & girls) outside our house, trying to set it alight. The boys were doing the act - but the girls were encouraging & instigating it. Just as if a man were encouraging abuse, and the woman performed it - I'd say the same. They were as guilty as one another. It came to be that a hefty slab was thrown at our door and the police were called. They wouldn't listen to me at all, insisted I could handle it alone...until they heard my then g/f screaming at one of the offenders who'd returned to the scene. Upon realising a woman might potentially be a victim, we were offered a police officer's assistance. Within five minutes we had a panda on our doorstep inspecting the damage while the other comforted my g/f. To me, that was unacceptable. However, to answer your query about abuse, keeping the above in mind, I could honestly say it would be down to police stupidity rather than gender discrimination. On the other hand, I'd like to express that I have a step son as well three daughters. He has gone missing, got into fights, etc. I've gone hunting for him and approached the others involved with the fights or parents of. Similarly, when my eldest daughter was five, she disappeared for two hours. She had been on the green outside our home, within eyeshot. It began to rain, and within moments the rain turned into a British torential downpour, you know the conditions I speak of, I'm sure. While their mother stayed indoors and made a couple of phone calls, I went out looking. Within an hour, our porch was flooded. The door was two & a half feet high. The rain was coming in our door. It was I who spent nearly the two hours searching. It was me who approached anyone & everyone I saw, disrupting their mad-dash to get under cover, to ask if they'd seen my daughter. My g/f wouldn't call one of our neighbours because we'd recently all fallen out (she said he tried it on with her, he denied it - caused major issues in his marriage). It was I who had to approach him and beg he not slam the door in my face, to give me the precious moments to explain the dilema. This man hated me with a passion for the upset my g/f & i had caused him. Yet this man, not his wife, came out in the pouring rains & thunder to assist me in looking for her. I can't tell you how grateful I was for that man's common decency. Despite his hate and contempt, he still did what was right. As it was, this situation had a happy ending. One of the girls she played with lived just around the corner, and her parents took my daughter in at the same time as they collected their daughter. The only issue we had, was we simply did not know this girl nor where she lived. We both learned a valuable lesson that day.

Quote from af

Question Area Three
If you believe feminism to be an evil influence (whatever your reasoning above), do you believe its followers are naturally evil people, hell-bent on destroying men purely for vindictive sakes (and doing so knowingly)... or are they simply misguided? Both? Other?

I think it's a mixture. I believe there are many humanists who mistakenly refer to themselves as feminists. I've met a few. I believe there are many who consciously hate men and attempt to instil hostilities towards them, think Dworkin & the like. There are some who think 'equality' is only a female issue, when clearly it isn't. They sign up to the feminist system thinking they're genuinely doing a good thing (I'm guilty of that in the past).

Quote from af

Question Area Four
Are you happy with the level of provision the men's movement gives to men? (I'm talking UK-specific here, I have little knowledge outside of the British Isles.)
Whilst the anti-feminist men's movement seems happy to attack feminism's flaws (of which there are many), sometimes it feels like the Conservatives attacking Labour policy, and vice versa... without coming up with any solutions themselves. Thoughts on this?

Yes, I see where you're coming from in that POV, and I'd concurr on many levels with it. My personal objective is to highlight the inequalities within feminism, to showcase it's ignorance and often hatred for half the population of our planet, while claiming to be for equality. I think the general movement is in it's infancy still. Given time, it shall coordinate it's efforts in a more focused method. Consider the means with which Glenn Sacks organizes his work. He pulls in a huge audience and uses that audience to slap anti-male situations, deservedly so. As more and more men become aware of sexism against them, the more it (the men's movement) shall come together.

Quote from af

Forgive me for being presumptuous, but the men's movement (to me at least) seems to draw parallels to radical feminism in that they're both extreme. I myself would be less than welcome on a radfem forum because of the views I hold.

Is there a void to be filled by a sort of "individualist men's movement" or a "liberal men's movement"... one less focused on hatred of the other side, one which can offer its own ideas maybe? Do you think this will ever materialise? If it will, where will its influence come from... America perhaps?

I think it's a bad comparison to say men's voices are alike to feminisms'. Feminism has openly declared war, open hateful towards men & often boys. Feminism has promoted violence upon men, for the crime of being men. No man I know of has once called for the extermination of women, whereas feminism has done so for men. I believe this forum is a fairly balanced group of men (and some women too) who can see the damage to society feminism has done, the damage to relationships between men & women. Most of the more extreme elements of the men's movement is by en large retaliation to hate mongering by feminists, not simple misogynists - as they're often mistaken for.

Quote from af

I realise that not everyone is a clone of each other on here, so I may get a smattering of differing opinions to be above, but I'd be interested in hearing anything any of you have to say (albeit politely, guys, at least give me that courtesy) on these matters.

And, any questions for me, just shout and I'll do my best to answer!

* Ooops, I see this post has become rather long. Apologies!

But of course! Similarly, we realise not every feminist is hateful. I've worked with one and know another. On the other hand, the majority of those whose voices are heard via media are hateful, or openly discriminatory against men, just like Patricia Hewitt.


(click for full size image)

Fred, thanks for contributing to this!

I couldn't find your article "Women Never Earned Right To Vote"..? Is it somewhere on your blog and I've missed it? (Please point me to a direct link!)

Quote from Fred X

Which is why you don't see many women in building sites or in garages!No- any occupation that required a level of risk- feminists couldn't care less about that
They strive for work in comfortable offices, and, to add insult to injury- propell the myth that 'women get paid less than men', without accounting for danger premiums!

Have you ever considered that a lot of feminists are unhappy about this situation too? (Here). For one thing, women and men being seperated into male/female diciplines is not a good thing for feminists.

The former tends to be higher paid (see apprenticeships wages, "feminised" caring professions earning less than "masculine" ones despite being of equal worth - i.e. nursing and engineering degrees' salary disparity) which is a contributing factor in the wage gap. You may pooh pooh and say the wage gap exists out of personal choice (apples/oranges argument) but if more girls are steered towards hairdressing than electrical engineering, they're being set up for a lower-earning career. Which is unfair on box sexes, because women can't support their husbands to the same level as men support women (historically, the latter is the norm).

Feminists also want to smash the gender stereotype - wouldn't feminists be harming their OWN cause to continue this workplace apartheid? The other thing is that I don't think you have an unbiased opinion about the level of discrimination faced by young girls going into male-dominated industries.

Personal example: My husband's electrical contract firm advertised for tradesmen. Only a fully time served, qualified-to-my-partner's-level female responded, because there's plenty of work in the city right now and the employers are in a weak position. My husband's boss took one look at it (my husband was in the office whilst this happened), started laughing, and passed it round the office as the Joke Of The Day. The next morning it was in the bin.

Lesson? Despite seriously needing employees to fulfil cable installation at commercial and industrial locations, they'd rather have NO installer than a female one, despite her having the same qualifications as any man on the job. What sort of message does this sort of thing give out to the women who DO want to get involved in the non-traditionally-feminine jobs?

Quote from Fred X

Society has been fooled by politics, educational institutions and the media for decades now, which, incidentally, are all feminist-led and dictated

Are you telling me that the entire world of politics, education and the media are feminist led? This I *do* find hard to believe. You may mean that lately there's been a feminist bias (divorce courts, the equal ops com, etc) but... feminist-led? Can you offer more thought on this - maybe an article somewhere?

Quote from Fred X

So is it a wonder why you don't see a 'plan of action' as such out there for all to gawp at and admire?
Also, I resent the idea that there is no real 'direction' or 'solutions' proposed by men themselves
For example, I believe if the feminist-led media won't inform our kids on how men are downgraded in society, then we should
For example, when a child doesn't see his father for years, and, when told by a number of factors his father is nothing more than a 'deadbeat dad', is it fair to expect him to passively accept this?
No!

Regarding my suggestion that there is a lack of a "progressive" men's movement (one more focused on getting men's rights, rather than attacking feminism): I think you've misunderstood. As one solution you say "if the feminist-led media won't inform our kids on how men are downgraded in society, then we should" -- but this is just attacking feminism again. I mean something truly progressive -- such as, aren't you angered that until recently (I believe) male rape only carried a maximum sentence of 2 YEARS (!) in Scotland? And you know the first online resouce to explain this that I could find was a feminist resource lol I didn't do that on purpose (honest): here.

That sort of thing. A TRUE male equivalent to feminism, but not a negative force -- a positive one. The one you propose is just as bad as your accusations of feminism, no?

Off for tonight, good documentary starting -- I'll check back tomorrow (maybe when the time zone allows a more coherent response from cyptic Yan Yan over there lol)...

Regarding my suggestion that there is a lack of a "progressive" men's movement (one more focused on getting men's rights, rather than attacking feminism): I think you've misunderstood. As one solution you say "if the feminist-led media won't inform our kids on how men are downgraded in society, then we should" -- but this is just attacking feminism again.

If we want to get men's rights, then we have to attack feminism and make them and everyone else listen to us. Most feminists seem to hate men's rights or men's issues being discussed and if they had it all their way, we probably wouldn't hear about them at all until it eventually had a knock-on effect on women. They certainly aren't going to change their ways until someone actually steps up and really challenges them.

If we want to get lots of people to hear us and to be aware of men's rights, then the media is an essential tool.

However, feminism in the media is one of the major obstacles that stands in the way of men's rights.

If those in control of a certain area of the media do not want its audience to hear about something, then we won't hear about it from there. The media can effectively starve any group or individual it desires of any coverage and they will therefore go unnoticed by most people.

Given the feminist views amongst the media, issues concerning men's rights will generally take a back seat or may not even be mentioned at all.
Too many times, if there is an issue affecting men, the media will completely ignore it, but if there is an issue affecting women you won't be able to escape hearing about it.