Yes, Marx, I can identify a problem that feminism has caused, and I've already mentioned it a few times in this forum (who was listening?): affirmative action quotas. They've resulted in reverse discrimination (discrimination against males, particularly white males), and have done nothing but increase prejudiced attitudes toward women and minorities. A lose-lose situation for everyone. What needs to be done: we need to get rid of these policies. How? I'm not sure. I think that both women and men need to stand up against this: make sure that people in positions of authority understand that we don't think quotas are the answer.

Some of the problems I'm hearing other people identify aren't really caused by feminism, though they are legitimate problems, such as unfair sentencing, custody issues, and a lack of resources funded by the government for men. Unless feminists have written the laws, or are the judges in these cases, or have personally blocked the government from funding help for men, I don't see how feminists are to blame. Feminists have pushed for women's rights, and pushed for equality. If they are guilty of anything they are guilty of focusing solely on women and not on men. But if you look at history, there's a reason for that. There was a need for it. Today, I'd say that the men's issues need that focus. And if you really want to get somewhere a little faster with that goal, it wouldn't hurt to have women/feminists join you in your fight. Of course that might mean that you would be asked to refrain from calling them cunts and talking about killing them, and it might mean that you might want to stop blaming them for every single thing that you think is wrong with society.

Just my opinion.

Marx,

I'm not saying that you personally have used these words or said those things. A few of your members have.

And I would also like to address the accusation of "cherry picking"...because I've been accused of this. And yes, I've spoken out on things that individuals have said. Same as everyone else has done to my statements. Some of you have highlighted and repeated certain parts of my statements and ignored the rest.

Quote from TERA

...and have done nothing but increase prejudiced attitudes toward women and minorities.

And you don't think men have been affected... not just minority men, but men as a class?

As for the rest of that, sorry but it came across as a rant more than anything. Feminists may not have 'written the laws, been the judges or personally blocked the government' but as a movement they HAVE used political clout to intimidate judges, called out publicly for lenient sentences for female criminals (most commonly insisting mental illness or a man 'made her do it', e.g. Andrea Yates ring any bells?) and they do petition the government to place these laws. I recently explained some of this on YA (naturally the question was deleted) as a feminist British Minister (who was found guilty of sex discrimination against a man) was demanding 'white men' (yes, she was that specific) would NOT be able to take companies to court for discrimination (i.e. the very thing SHE was taken to court for).

ETA: The very fact that she is saying 'white men' should not be allowed to defend themselves from discrimination *IS* discrimination itself.

Personally, I'm skeptical of studies, particularly those that are not credible, valid, and documented or published in scientific journals. There are good scientific research methods and there are much less credible methods such as correlational studies and surveys. I think we all have to be very careful about what we buy into. We need to examine the source. We need to examine the study. And we need to use our critical thinking skills when analyzing the results. Rarely do statistics tell the entire story. They can be quite misleading. I almost never take anything at face value. You have to dig deeper.

I've been learning quite a bit about research methods in my psych classes. And I can tell you what my prof told me: for every study that shows a particular result, more often than not, you can find another that disproves that result. (And this being said of all studies, not just psychological studies/research.)

From my own experience, I tend to agree.

Marx,

My grandmother used to say, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". Now it may seem silly, but it's really true, I think. He who shouts the loudest and the longest ends up being the one who gets heard. I think that men need to organize, they need to band together, and it wouldn't hurt to examine how feminists have achieved the power they've achieved and perhaps take what has worked and implement it. And it really wouldn't hurt for both sexes to be united behind these causes.

Just my opinion.

Quote from TERA

I've been learning quite a bit about research methods in my psych classes. And I can tell you what my prof told me: for every study that shows a particular result, more often than not, you can find another that disproves that result. (And this being said of all studies, not just psychological studies/research.)

From my own experience, I tend to agree.

Right, and for *you* to learn of this, it took a college course in an area that required this kind of work. So, it's good that *you* know.
I started to understand this when I read up on feminist 'studies' (you know, those things that keep saying the same old message "men bad, women good") and saw other men explaining "Wait... the feminist author 'forgot' to explain HOW she acquired this statistic, she 'forgot' to mention the xyz-problem also affects men to an x%, she 'forgot' to mention that the conclusion of the original study also said x,y and z...and so on"
It's kind of heartbreaking to realise the things you thought were right to stand up for - were based on misleading normal, everyday people; people who haven't taken classes and get informed "watch out, studies intentionally mislead people" - these people take what they are told at face value, and feminist 'authors' know this, and with that in mind, they are deceitful, manipulative and downright sick in the mind. It takes a special breed of person to manipulate so many people at once.

Even that UN report - which is 'supposed' to be neutral, was written by a feminist so it was NO SHOCK that it said "women = innocent victims / men = guilty perpetrators" - was it? Well, not to me and not to most MRA's because we are so used to it. Every damn time, without fail.

Quote from TERA

Personally, I'm skeptical of studies, particularly those that are not credible, valid, and documented or published in scientific journals. There are good scientific research methods and there are much less credible methods such as correlational studies and surveys. I think we all have to be very careful about what we buy into. We need to examine the source. We need to examine the study. And we need to use our critical thinking skills when analyzing the results. Rarely do statistics tell the entire story. They can be quite misleading. I almost never take anything at face value. You have to dig deeper.

Then you should reject the majority of feminist research found in Women's Studies classes. Are you familiar with De-constructionism, or the theory that logic and reason are tools of the Patriarchy?

Maybe we could examine how feminism came to be: the causes, the progression, the sources of power supported it. Women did not get the right to vote solely because of other women: they got the right to vote because there were MEN who also believed that women should have equality. The sexes were united. Divided at times, yes, not a perfect history: but, when it comes down to it, ideas that were right for the evolution of our society, ideas that came from our value of equality (which our democracy is based upon), was/is supported as much by men as it is by women. Feminism hasn't been solely a woman's movement. It's been a human rights movement. In a relatively short period of time in history, women and minorities have made substantial progress and done so through peaceful means even in the face of some violent opposition. I think it would be wise to examine these successes, learn a bit from them, perhaps, and maybe use what knowlege we've gained to help the MRA movement. The way I see it, the MRA's are also part of the civil rights/human rights/feminism movements. The common goal being equality: legally, and socially.

If the MRA movement could realize the benefits of letting go of the "us against them" attitude, perhaps MRA's could form powerful alliances and be recognized as part of a much larger movement (human rights)- one that almost no one opposes. What power and influence could be had!

What amazes me to think about is how much women and minorities have achieved toward the goal of equality not only in such a relatively short period of time in history, but despite the fact that they were very under-represented in positions of authority and politics. This must mean that the people: white, colored, men AND women, united together to achieve these things. Feminism might have raised awareness. It might have got the ball rolling...but it was the people of this democratic society that stood TOGETHER to affect change.

The power of that makes me proud to be an American.

And I think that there's something (a few things, really), that we can learn from these events if we examine them more closely. Perhaps there are things we can learn that we can apply to the MRA movement to help it achieve success.

What do you think?

I've got a class to attend in about 30 minutes...I'll be back later.

Tera, you talk of the 'us vs them' mentality.

Let me put it this way.

First of all, we (men and 'our' generation of both sexes) did not start this mentality... we have tolerate being bashed & lied about for generations, decades and endless 'studies' proclaiming "man bad/woman good".

I think it's fair to say, for the most part, us blokes have been damn tolerant considering the hatred we've endured in the name of 'equality' from feminist groups in cahoots with government agencies and such.

And here's a snapshot of today's world:

Feminists ARE allowed to join this board, interact and argue their points on this, and the majority of other male-friendly web-sites.

MRA's are NOT allowed to join, interact and voice their opinions on feminist blogs, forums and most 'feminist-friendly' web-sites. (though I have noticed many male-feminists will allow mra's to voice their opinion - it does appear mostly to be female feminists that deny men a voice through censorship, banning and moderation mechanisms)


That should tell you something about who's got the 'us vs them' mentality. Feminism (the movement) had this mentality generations ago - they still have it now.

If you'd like to know a bit about history - I urge you to talk with a co-Admin, Celtic Druid. His knowledge of history far outweighs mine to the Nth degree.