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  1. #46
    Barry Deutsch's Avatar
    Barry Deutsch is offline Established Member
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Quote Quote from Trauma Fried Brains View Post
    Ive had a look at these examples (not completly though), but am confused about which are your statements. Are you Ampersand?
    Sorry, I should have specified that. On that blog I do indeed write under the name "Ampersand."

    This statement intrigued me. To what degree is it rhetorical if at all?
    It was a rhetorical question. To make it perfectly clear, I don't think anyone should feel guilty due to being born male (or born female, for that matter).

    If it is just a statement of logical purity then that is one thing; but I would say that any reasonable observation of society clearly shows that some people not only have guilt projected on them for their gender, but actually accept it too. Unless you refute this, will you tell me why?
    I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Could you point to a specific example of what you're talking about?

  2. #47
    ingrate's Avatar
    ingrate is offline Established Member
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Barry:

    Listen toots, the one in four number is bogus. Get it?

    The study is bogus. Get it?

  3. #48
    Percy's Avatar
    Percy is online now Knackered old Knight
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Women face a serious risk of being plunged into poverty after divorce whereas men are often better off financially, a study has revealed.

    Fathers in particular are left significantly wealthier, with their average available income increasing by a third. This is because most children live with their mothers after divorce.

    [...]

    On average, male incomes rise by 25 per cent, whereas women's fall by a fifth, even when children are not involved.
    This is typical mendacity; the sort one finds in 'study' after 'study'.

    It is rarely if ever shown clearly that said 'father' was sharing his income with another adult and the children.

    His generosity is ignored.

    Once ejected from this family by the other, free-loading adult, his income remains just as it was - it does not increase by one cent - but it is his alone.

    For this, the women whine and try to claim that they are now poor; that HER income has fallen. It is akin to a street prostitute claiming sympathy when people cross the street to avoid her and her bit of expropriated pavement (side-walk).

    Of course, the 'authorities' do not like, one little bit, that his income is his alone, and turn justice on its head to make him continue to 'share' that income with the woman who has already shown herself devoid of gratitude.

    She then hides behind the children, using them as shield and weapon, demanding that he pay her for them. No thought is given by the 'authorities' to him having his children - as he can afford to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed - and she paying him.

    Meanwhile 'studies' pour out of the Women's Studies Departments, mendaciously calumnising men and creating the image of woman-victim.

    And by the Lord Barry, there are some men who would defend this travesty.
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    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
    Love the Sinner but not the Sin.
    (St. Augustine)

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers,
    against the Rulers of the Darkness of this world, against Spiritual Wickedness in high places.
    (and within ourselves)


    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious. If you meet one on the road as you
    Go your Own Way, offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.





  4. #49
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Quote Quote from Barry Deutsch View Post
    Sorry, I should have specified that. On that blog I do indeed write under the name "Ampersand."?
    Thank you, I’ll read them with more interest now.




    Quote Quote from Barry Deutsch View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Could you point to a specific example of what you're talking about?

    Why are people made to feel guilty for the sex they are? I accept that you don’t think they should but why do they? It is a hard question to answer and I believe it is best answered generally. But here are two specific examples you asked for. To keep it balanced I would have to give a specific example of both genders; and for the sake of authority I’ll speak from personal experience.

    1. My sister was made to feel guilty for expecting an equal share of my mums inheritance because she was female. My mums strongly held the view my sister will only inherit my mothers jewellery because female descendants are ‘unworthy’ of inheriting her other greater assets. I believe my sister did have a sense of guilt over this until she converted it to a sense of insult. I have every conviction that my mother promoted sexist values.

    2. Decades later I lost all contact with my son form my Ex’s successful efforts to exclude me. I did not have any legal restrictions preventing me from associating with my son. My son and I had secret phone calls and on one occasion, the last contact between us, he was caught by my Ex. Before she cut him off he explained how she will now punish him for speaking to me. The phone call was recorded and I communicated with social services to ask for an appointment for me to bring the recording and complain that I considered my son was being abused.

    I didn’t get an appointment, and the social services were rather hostile whilst implying that am not acting in my son’s best interests. They indignantly insisted that my complaint is a matter for the family courts, to which I have absolutely no confidence, which I said was a false rebuff as any child abuse issues are a matter of social services primarily. They even adopted the line that I was manipulating and abusing my son because I had recorded that phone call. There are a number of other details, but the upshot was that they made me feel guilty for caring for my son because I am a man. Their language strongly conveyed this sense to me. Of course this is my subjective view, but I have every confidence that the social service people I spoke to were motivated by sexist values.

    These are only two specific cases from my personal experience, but would ask that you could also consider any examples from your own experience as examples of my question. I realise that my question to you about why, in reality, are people made to feel guilty for the sex they are, is also rhetorical to some extent. But if you have an answer to the general case that they are, then I would certainly welcome it.




    On a separate note, unpleasant though it is, I would speculate that you wouldn’t be surprised that you will experience ‘shit’ form some of the members here. I will say to your credit that you haven’t returned offence on a personal level, but unfortunately the statements you make are clearly offensive to some. You may not find it logical but it is the reality of people with deeply scared feelings. I do not have the presence of mind to go through the surveys mentioned on this string and produce an argument and that is why I didn’t take part.

    However, regardless of which arguments on this string have merit, I have a further question for you.

    There is a general view amongst many here that an influentially significant number of misandrists who are also called feminists do misinform through unbalanced reports. It is also felt that there is a significant effort placed on condemning men whilst promoting women as morally superior. An example of this would be how so many DV organisations use wording and imagery of a polarised nature. My question is do you believe this sort of thing is going on and has influenced many who identify themselves as feminists?





    If you are wandering about my attitude, then equality is very precious to me, but i find it hard not to resent those who presume it of themselves but think and do the opposite.
    Last edited by Trauma Fried Brains; 17th-April-2009 at 04:37 PM.

  5. #50
    RebelliousVanilla's Avatar
    RebelliousVanilla is offline Established Member
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    lol, random samples don't guarantee the ability representative of the average. Let's put it this way... If I go inside McDonalds and randomly ask people if they like McDonalds or not, I'm going to get a lot of positive answers, even though I asked random people.

    The study has to be done on a sample that is similar to the entire population based on age, income, education and so on and the questions have to be specific - not did you get sexually harassed, but about specific events and the rapes should be divided in types of them.

  6. #51
    CaptDMO's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Quote Quote from Barry Deutsch View Post

    If you make a claim, prove it. Please cite (with publication date, name of publication, etc., so I can look it up myself) a recent, published, peer-reviewed study by a feminist which concluded "man bad, women perfect." If you don't do this, then I'll consider that when deciding what weight to give your claims.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    101-
    The Duluth Model
    Pence and Paymar

    overviews-further research required for specific dates.
    Current "Mail order bride" legislation (IMBRA)-with the ASSUMPTION that U.S. "legislation" is peer reviewed.
    McElroy, perhaps you've heard of her?

    Sadly,Mail Order BridesWikipedia
    Known contentious opinion source- not a legitimate academic reference.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What qualifies one as intelligent, as opposed to merely bestowed a diploma, and bona fide, "peer", deemed qualified to impartially review others theses?

    How long before a publication is no longer "recent", and therefore, apparently ineligible for your challenge? Is U.S. prohibition/suffrage era material contemporary enough?

    How about the oft academically cited "The Scum Manifesto"?

    ANYTHING by alleged "intellectual" members of N.O.W., debasing the work of Erin Pizzy.

    Well..... as mentioned above, this is only a 101 syllabus.
    ONE example should serve.
    Last edited by CaptDMO; 18th-April-2009 at 07:23 PM. Reason: fat finger typographical error remediation

  7. #52
    RebelliousVanilla's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Considering how crappy a lot of the Western women seem to be, I'm not surprised a lot of men marry women from other countries.

    If I'd be a man, I'd be like "Are you a feminist?" "Yes" "NEXT!" lol

  8. #53
    Zuberi's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Quote Quote from RebelliousVanilla View Post
    Considering how crappy a lot of the Western women seem to be, I'm not surprised a lot of men marry women from other countries.

    If I'd be a man, I'd be like "Are you a feminist?" "Yes" "NEXT!" lol
    That's funny you should say that, because I'm only 21 years old and I have no plans to date or get married period. You can thank uncle sam and feminism for that!!

  9. #54
    CaptDMO's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Quote Quote from Barry Deutsch View Post

    Koss' studies deserve respect because they were well-conducted using well-established social science procedures,
    That's nice, amongst social "scientists".
    Does the fact that well-established social science procedures can be used to defend ANY predetermined outcome matter?

    Second of all, obviously I've met some jerks among feminists -- just as I've met some jerks among anti-feminists. (Look at the utter contempt that several people on this thread have treated me with.)
    Golly Barry, after all, you have a history, and "several people on this thread" may just have been paying attention, and are unwilling to bestow academic intellectual courtesy where it has yet to been merited, or recognize anything beyond "common" courtesy.
    I'm sure Hugo (for one) can explain this concept.

    Shall we cut to a recording (that I'm SURE you have a copy of) of caller #1 "responding" to Mandy's super intelligent call-in interview opportunity on Mr. Sacks radio show?

  10. #55
    Percy's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Social science studies use methodologies and procedures that are at best questionable and at worst plain bogus. Some, a few, stand up to some scrutiny but all get criticised in some degree and some are declared as plain rubbish by 'peers'. Most have counter studies that simply prove them wrong. Every other social scientist disagrees with every other.

    We aren't talking about the boiling point of water here. To some 'social scientists' water boils at 85 deg. C. if you really, really believe hard and they have a NASA grant.

    The 'Bible' of social studies methods, questionaiires, statistical techniques etc and the reports they are used in is the Buros. It contains thousands upon thousands of such questionnaires etc, studies' results and critiques. The vast majority are of no value whatsoever, with 'methodologies' cobbled together by 20 year olds doing low-quality degrees and supervised by 'Professors' who have a vested interest in passing them.

    The 'researchers' often listed as 'et al' are usually 18-20 year olds with a first year of undergrad study under their belts and no idea what it is they are doing. They go off merrily interviewing other 18 - 20 year olds (for $10) with shoddy questionnaires and a deadline to meet. The Professors are adept at 'smoothing' results and hiding raw data that contradicts. You can recognise these as they give their 'researchers' pencils. No Professor gets a shred of Kudos for showing his/her research effort was in vain and no one gives a toss about the kids' work.

    It is astonishing how many 'Professors' 'lose' their raw data to fire, flood and burglars with strange valuing techniques. There is a mountain somewhere strewn with CDs and laptops and not a single bit of rock beneath them.

    PhD students conduct research for dissertations that are again a best questionable - when they have any use at all - and at worst just plain shoddy or stupid.

    One also has to question the term 'Professor'. In the UK and Commonwealth countries a Professor is a senior rank academic. In America it encompasses everyone down to what in the UK is called a lecturer, even a part-time one. Everyone and his dog is a friggin' professor in an American Uni, even the janitor. Some are barely qualified at all. I recall one very Eminent professor when I was doing my degrees years ago, a 'Paradigm' scholar, Erik Erikson, who when he was given an Honourary degree from somewhere or other for a lifetime's work, told everyone that it was the first degree he'd ever been awarded ! He hadn't got even a Batchelor's. !

    You just have to look at the stirling 'career' of the first Mrs Percy, who is a Professor. Rode all the way on a Feminist ticket and my money! A ferret has a fine chance if it is a feminist.

    The vast majority of 'subjects' in such 'studies' are children who are obliged to answer questions or fail to get a grade. Their opinion (hah! ) is counted as a fact. Their declared guess at the 'right' answer is then genaralised to half the countries of the world which most of these kids could not point to on a map, and everyone up to 85 and still breathing.
    Last edited by Percy; 19th-April-2009 at 05:12 PM.
    When in need of a drink to Refresh the soul
    Drop into the Knight & Drummer Free House.
    http://parzivalshorse.blogspot.com.au/
    Always leave a Comment as a tip.


    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
    Love the Sinner but not the Sin.
    (St. Augustine)

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers,
    against the Rulers of the Darkness of this world, against Spiritual Wickedness in high places.
    (and within ourselves)


    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious. If you meet one on the road as you
    Go your Own Way, offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.





  11. #56
    haahoo's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    I've always preferred the "grounded theory" approach to statistics gathering!

    Its full of shit, but the key skill is to identify the diamonds in the shit and not mistake undigested corn nuggets for diamonds..

  12. #57
    MikeT's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Percy,
    Slightly off topic but a tad relevant with respect to tertiary training.
    (Uni's, Polytechs and the like)
    You can actually second-guess most of your work in a polytech or uni here, because if for God sakes you might fail (or as it is called here these days Not Yet Competent, you get the chance to do it all over again and the tutor will actually (if you are that thick) give you the answers, via a verbal assessment.

    Feminism caused this, it was caused by not enough women being able to get into the engineering and electrical trades, so we dropped the standards.
    Male apprentices had to sit this tripe as well, when they could have quite easily have flown through a practical assessment, no, it all has to be written down on paper, so that the gurrrls, can keep up.

    I mean, I can weld using most forms of welders, I went to a welding refresher last month, to keep my certification, as a Structural Weldor (that isn't a typo).

    Jesus did I get a shock!, the tutor was a woman and before we even got near a welder, we had the big EOE(Equal Oppurtunities in Employment) speech (all the people on the course were MEN).

    "This course is keyed to people of both genders and all ethnic groups, if you have any concerns about how this course will be assessed, please fill this form out over here"

    "Meanwhile, there is a written test first off, to make sure we can assess you"

    I took exception to this and said "I thought we were here to weld, not shag around with paperwork!"

    I was asked to leave and was judged as Not Yet Competent.



    I'll try a different course later in the year, when a MAN is running it, one that can actually weld.
    Last edited by MikeT; 23rd-April-2009 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Typo

  13. #58
    Barry Deutsch's Avatar
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    Question Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    I just came across this thread, and thought I'd try it one more time.

    What drew me into this thread was this claim, by Percy:

    Rather than asking a random sample of women about rape per se, as per normal for social research, Koss asked feminist magazine readers if they had ever experienced actions that she then classified as rape. A self-selected cohort of feminists who felt aggrieved responded.
    I pointed out this wasn't true, and asked Percy for his source. Percy claimed that his source was the book Who Stole Feminism?, by Christina Hoff Sommers.

    Here, as I've pointed out a few times, is what Who Stole Feminism? actually says about Koss' sample:

    "Koss and her associates interviewed slightly more than three thousand college women, randomly selected nationwide."

    You can check Who Stole Feminism? for yourself -- no where in WSF is there any support for Percy's claim that Koss used a self-selected sample of feminist magazine readers. In fact, Who Stole Feminism? says exactly the opposite of Percy's claim. Anyone with access to an academic library can also read Koss' study, and confirm that Who Stole Feminism? and I are correct about this question.

    This isn't a subjective question. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact that anyone could look up for themselves.

    Here's my question:

    Is there even one person on this forum, apart from me, who is willing to publicly admit that Percy was factually wrong to say that Koss' study used a self-selected sample of feminist magazine readers?

    And if no one here is ever willing to admit an error -- not even when the evidence is exceptionally clear, as it is in this case -- then what possible motivation is there for me, or anyone who is interested in evidence-based debate, to post on this forum?

  14. #59
    RebelliousVanilla's Avatar
    RebelliousVanilla is offline Established Member
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Just for calculation. In the US there are 150 000 000 women. If 1 in 4 is true, then 37.5 million women got raped. Which is bogus.

    By the way, in that study that Koss made, only one quarter of the women Koss claims to have been raped, said they got raped. That means 6%, not 25%.

    Another thing, by the questions that Koss asked, I would have been in the rape statistics because I had sex with a man after he bought me booze. This isn't rape. I mean, sure, if the woman passes out, it is. But if she consents or actively participates, it isn't rape. Hence why most women who replied yes to any of the made up characteristics of rape of Koss didn't feel like they are rape victims.

    "Have you given in to sex play (fondling, kissing, or petting, but not intercourse) when you didn't want to because you were overwhelmed by a man's continual arguments and pressure?"
    So if a woman insists on her husband buying something, it is theft? No offense, no means no, but yes means yes.

    42% of the women who got "raped" later had sex with their "attacker". Anyone who saw or has been a victim of rape knows this is impossible. Unless of course, they didn't get raped.

    I can go on. Anyway, I took statistics in school and her study has systemic flaws, which usually come when the statistician wants to get to some results.

  15. #60
    RebelliousVanilla's Avatar
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    Re: 1:4 lie on TV tonight

    Oh, and by this study, I have a male friend who constantly gets raped by women. If we consider what that study claims as rape is rape.


 

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