OK, I think I have a solution. (unless people want to argue while on the same side).

It takes usually about 5 years to come out the other end. I think everyone who has been there done that should give those going through it some space to heal.

Quote from KellyMac

I think it's because I got a divorce, and then disappeared for a long time. A lot of people don't know me any more, and the ones who do maybe feel betrayed. I don't know. All I do know is I let my emotions get in the way, and it never ends well when that happens. I think I came back expecting everything to be the same and that isn't realistic.

Wow. You never stop amazing me. I have something to say but want to ask you give me the chance before you enter a comment back.

Kelly, I know it's real hard to be a single parent. But then just today I had a phone call from a dad that's fighting depression that will never see the hardship I have, and I suggested he use the internet and look up something he is passionate about and forum. I told him this because he is going further and further down while his sister who has no children, took his children by using the state through child services. (dont get me started on this case, lol)

He seriously needs the support and I told him the internet can be his friend and gave him the basics to use google.

You will get through this, your children will too and so will dad. The human race is resilient.

Kelly, I think it's sad you have to suffer to gain real insight. But I know you are real and good. It's just that everyone is suffering and I think that's what TMOTS is trying to tell you.

Quote from julie

Kelly, I think it's sad you have to suffer to gain real insight. But I know you are real and good. It's just that everyone is suffering and I think that's what TMOTS is trying to tell you.

Yeah I get it now that I'm calmed down. Damn I hate when I do that. Sorry guys.

Quote from KellyMac

Yeah I get it now that I'm calmed down. Damn I hate when I do that. Sorry guys.

You are only human, lol.

Ugh. Bickering and fighting with each other - not cool.

Quote from FloatyBoaty

Ugh. Bickering and fighting with each other - not cool.

But human.

Quote from KellyMac

I'm sorry I called you a moron - I felt like I had already explained myself several times and it really seemed that people were deliberately misunderstanding me. That is very frustrating. So can we please get back to the debate and stop making this about me?

It would have helped to keep the apology separate from the rest of the paragraph. Just so you know.

I think Garak's frustration is that women tend to make similar claims about their exes to what KellyMac is making even when those women are to blame and fathers don't even get a say in the matter to defend themselves. I think for KellyMac there is dissatisfaction due the fact that she will be doubted no matter if she's telling the truth because of our skepticism due to what single mothers do. Just because what we say is true doesn't mean it doesn't happen the other way (fathers being to blame) but that doesn't make it any easier to believe a woman's claims when so many women who lie about it say the exact same things. I think we're right to be cynical and KellyMac, if she is telling the truth, is right to be angry too.

I guess the game is rigged against the good people.

Quote from FloatyBoaty

It would have helped to keep the apology separate from the rest of the paragraph. Just so you know.

Ummm, does this dickhead have a say whose comment is worthy?

OMG, I just realise antimisandry is allowing this .... man.... to decide who of us are worthy for this site. (he gave me a cross or whatever)

You have gotta be joking. How desperate did you get, lol.

Quote from DadsDivorce.com

Annual child support payments averaged $5,450 from male providers and $3,500 from female providers, nearly 56% less.

Quote from KellyMac

It's not surprising that more men pay, ... Most mothers have custody

Indeed, one is a direct result of the other and there is never a requirement upon a custodial parent to prove how much of their earnings go towards the children, in the way that there is for a non-custodial parent.

Quote from KellyMac

It's not surprising that more men ... pay more. ... most fathers earn more than their ex-wives.

If you can find any genuine source that indicates that the average female earning is anything close to 56% less than the average for males, I'd be interested. Otherwise, it appears to be clear discrimination that the difference is not close to the difference in average earnings.

Remember, these data are about the USA, where ability to pay child support is only vaguely connected with the legal requirement to pay.

Quote from KellyMac

I don't know how it is where you live, but here in Oregon child support is based mostly on a comparison of income levels and amount of visitation. Believe me, the amount I get doesn't even cover groceries for my son, much less the cost of providing everything else for him. That's not a complaint, just a fact. I have no problem providing for my kids - either financially or morally. That's my job as a parent. Oregon Child Support Program - Child Support Guidelines Calculator

It's not surprising that more men pay, and they pay more. Most mothers have custody, and most fathers earn more than their ex-wives. You can't force a person to earn more than they're motivated to earn. It may not be right, but that's also just a fact. To say that it's some kind of economic discrimination against men is using false logic.

Here in the UK, they take 15% of your net income; regardless of how much this is. I pay about the lowest amount, as I EARN the lowest amount possible, pretty much. Despite this, my son is happy, taller-than-average and wider-than-average, has plenty of toys, and a mother who doesn't work, yet who manages to afford more luxuries than I do.

And, to reiterate: I pay roughly the lowest amount anyone would pay, except those on benefits. Draw what conclusions you will, logical people, as to whether or not this means child support screws men over.

People have to understand that state enforced child alimony is the reason we have so many children growing up without fathers. At the first sign of trouble women kick the father out of the family because they know the state will step in and make him maintain her lifestyle, in the name of the children. She will lose nothing and will actually gain full ownership of that which she once had to share (the house, the car, the kids, the furniture, etc...). He will lose everything so this is a double whammy for him, not only does he lose everything and have to buy it all again (though usually not as nice), he has to continue to pay for the lifestyle she enjoyed.

People are afraid to say "men shouldn't pay a dime" because they have bought into the "children must always come first" BS. No, the children don't always have to come first and indeed paying nothing will probably be just fine. After all, the mother is working too right? She is probably collecting benefits from the state. right? It's either one way or the other and most of the time it's both. Remember, when a father can't pay for his kid he is a deadbeat and will be criminally punished. When a mother can't pay for her kids, the state gives her money and benefits.