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  1. #16
    RebelliousVanilla's Avatar
    RebelliousVanilla is offline Established Member
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I can empathize, too, RV, but to a point. Planning to kill oneself because you didn't get what you deserved, wanted, needed may seem like a great solution when you're deeply depressed, but it really doesn't consider how that will impact the children. It's selfish. It may be very difficult to re-establish a relationship with kids (or adults) who've been poisoned by their parents (and don't think for a second that this only happens to men). ..but if you kill yourself that's it. You absolutely won't ever have a chance. And your kids will have to live with that. What the hell did they do to deserve it? Think about it.
    It's selfish for a child to hate a parent that loves him. And you can't re-do bonds after 18 years of brainwashing. Plus, what makes you think the child would even give that parent a chance? You don't have a chance either way.

  2. #17
    Jack's Avatar
    Jack is offline Established Member
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    2. Show genuine empathy and genuine positive regard.
    Not when money is involved, the empathy is tainted when one has to pay for it.

    Kinda like "love" and hookers (actual love, not just bangin'), you can't pay a hooker to love you and you can't pay someone to empathize with you. It either happens or it doesn't.

    And all that is besides the fact that its very socially unacceptable for men to visit shrinks.

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I can empathize, too, RV, but to a point. Planning to kill oneself because you didn't get what you deserved, wanted, needed may seem like a great solution when you're deeply depressed...
    Thats exactly it though, and you can't think straight when you're deeply depressed.

  3. #18
    Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from RebelliousVanilla View Post
    It's selfish for a child to hate a parent that loves him. And you can't re-do bonds after 18 years of brainwashing. Plus, what makes you think the child would even give that parent a chance? You don't have a chance either way.
    RV, children ARE selfish...by nature they are selfish. If they've been poisoned by a parent, in my mind, the child/children can and should be forgiven. It isn't their fault. They often don't know all aspects to a story. They only really "know" what they've been told, and even if they "know" the truth, they may fear repercussions from the parent doing the poisoning.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  4. #19
    Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from Jack View Post
    Not when money is involved, the empathy is tainted when one has to pay for it.

    Kinda like "love" and hookers (actual love, not just bangin'), you can't pay a hooker to love you and you can't pay someone to empathize with you. It either happens or it doesn't.

    And all that is besides the fact that its very socially unacceptable for men to visit shrinks.



    Thats exactly it though, and you can't think straight when you're deeply depressed.
    I have empathy for my clients and it is genuine. Just because there's money involved doesn't mean the empathy isn't real. Though I hear you....there are therapists out there who don't have genuine empathy and won't have it regardless. They do more damage than good.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  5. #20
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Tera, allow me to tell a short tale, from which you may grasp a realization.

    Recently my ex's grandmother passed away. Our kids were allowed to go to the funeral & service.

    Two years ago, my mother passed away. Our kids were not allowed to go to either the funeral or the service.

    I bit my lip for a week before I said anything to my ex.

    However, I did speak in the end. Our conversation went to this effect:

    <hr>
    Me
    Ex

    I'm fairly disgusted by this, it really demonstrates how you think and operate - that you consider your extended family is more important to our kids than my direct family and want the kids to feel the same way...
    I know it must look that way, but that's not how it is... there are reasons.
    (I resisted the natural urge to enquire 'such as?')
    No, you don't know how it feels at all, to see your family members being discarded and ignored.
    But I do understand...
    No, you actually don't understand - you'll never understand because I've never pulled something like this against you...
    I do understand though, honestly.
    How - How can you possibly understand?
    I can imagine just how it must feel...
    Ah - that's the keyword, right there - you can only 'imagine'... but you'll never 'know' because I haven't - and wouldn't - pull this kind of shit on you like you have me.
    <hr>

    Now, my point in this is only that you say you can understand and emphasize - but without being disrespectful, I doubt you can. You'll never understand unless you've been there and actually endured that kind of treatment. True hopelessness conjures these dark thoughts... I do know, and I do emphasize, and I have been there... well, very close.
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  6. #21
    Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from Marx View Post
    Tera, allow me to tell a short tale, from which you may grasp a realization.

    Recently my ex's grandmother passed away. Our kids were allowed to go to the funeral & service.

    Two years ago, my mother passed away. Our kids were not allowed to go to either the funeral or the service.

    I bit my lip for a week before I said anything to my ex.

    However, I did speak in the end. Our conversation went to this effect:

    <hr>
    Me
    Ex

    I'm fairly disgusted by this, it really demonstrates how you think and operate - that you consider your extended family is more important to our kids than my direct family and want the kids to feel the same way...
    I know it must look that way, but that's not how it is... there are reasons.
    (I resisted the natural urge to enquire 'such as?')
    No, you don't know how it feels at all, to see your family members being discarded and ignored.
    But I do understand...
    No, you actually don't understand - you'll never understand because I've never pulled something like this against you...
    I do understand though, honestly.
    How - How can you possibly understand?
    I can imagine just how it must feel...
    Ah - that's the keyword, right there - you can only 'imagine'... but you'll never 'know' because I haven't - and wouldn't - pull this kind of shit on you like you have me.
    <hr>

    Now, my point in this is only that you say you can understand and emphasize - but without being disrespectful, I doubt you can. You'll never understand unless you've been there and actually endured that kind of treatment. True hopelessness conjures these dark thoughts... I do know, and I do emphasize, and I have been there... well, very close.
    Marx,

    I have not had my kids taken away from me, but I have attempted suicide for other reasons that I won't go into here. I swallowed two bottles of prescription pills, ended up in the hospital, and spent a few days in a psych ward because of it.

    My mother (I was a teen then) refused to come and get me out of there when the doctors said I could finally go home. She said she'd had enough of me...couldn't deal with me anymore. She left me there. My father (who lived in another city, not with me) came and got me out. I went to live with him for the next two years, and during that time I was so depressed I did things no person in their right mind would do...like slashing my wrists and using drugs to numb myself. My dad was good enough to see to it that I continued to be seen by a therapist, and eventually I came out of my deep depression without medication.

    You can tell me I don't know what it's like to have my kids taken away and you'd be right. But you can't tell me I don't know what it's like to be so depressed that I'd want to die. I know how that feels. And because I know, I can and do have empathy for others who are going through similar emotions.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  7. #22
    Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    I facilitated (led) another group counseling session today with both men's groups combined. (There are two separate groups led by two different male counselors who were not here today.) I was the only female in the room. We did an interesting activity that involved finding out what we have in common with one another. At the end of it, we compared notes to see who in the room we had the most in common with. Funny thing...it turned out all of us had much in common with each other. Another interesting thing....as we went around the circle and each person told who on their list they had the most in common with, ten out of eleven of those men had my name at the top. I suppose it's not incredible, really, since all of us are in recovery, to have so much in common, but I think some of the men were surprised by it. The experience erased the gender line. In our group, if it mattered in the beginning, to anyone there that I was a woman (and they were all men) it ceased to matter after we did this activity. The point of the exercise, however, was not about gender at all (unless it was an issue for someone in the room), but more to create a bonding (cohesiveness) among all of us. We may have come from different backgrounds, were different ages, had different addictions, different experiences, but we all had many things in common that united us.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  8. #23
    Percy's Avatar
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    RV, children ARE selfish...by nature they are selfish. If they've been poisoned by a parent, in my mind, the child/children can and should be forgiven. It isn't their fault. They often don't know all aspects to a story. They only really "know" what they've been told, and even if they "know" the truth, they may fear repercussions from the parent doing the poisoning.
    I have a child who is now a grown woman. I have a profound pity for her with all the poison she has had to swallow. But she is adult now and could see things differently. That would mean throwing off the lies and placing responsibility on her mother.

    I can forgive her anything.

    The last action by Christ was to forgive. It is the last gift that a suiciding man can give. Few ever consider that Christ, as a man, must have suffered from a profound depression in his last days. The Crucifixion was avoidable. Suicide by cop.
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  9. #24
    Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from Percy View Post
    I have a child who is now a grown woman. I have a profound pity for her with all the poison she has had to swallow. But she is adult now and could see things differently. That would mean throwing off the lies and placing responsibility on her mother.

    I can forgive her anything.

    The last action by Christ was to forgive. It is the last gift that a suiciding man can give. Few ever consider that Christ, as a man, must have suffered from a profound depression in his last days. The Crucifixion was avoidable. Suicide by cop.
    You're right, forgiving children is much easier than forgiving adults..

    You have a good heart, Percy, great love for your daughter. I pray that she'll come to realize that someday.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  10. #25
    Kim's Avatar
    Kim
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from Marx View Post
    Now, my point in this is only that you say you can understand and emphasize - but without being disrespectful, I doubt you can. You'll never understand unless you've been there and actually endured that kind of treatment. True hopelessness conjures these dark thoughts... I do know, and I do emphasize, and I have been there... well, very close.
    Yep, thankfully I'm among the 'can only imagine' club....but even imagining is horrific. I miss my kids if I have to go an entire day without seeing or talking to them. I try to put myself in the shoes of these men; try to imagine going from being a daily part of my kid's lives, actively involved in all aspects of their parenting only to be relegated to non-custodial parent....only allowed to see them every other weeks and some holidays, having no idea what goes on in their lives on a day-to-day basis, no say in their upbringing. I can't even imagine something so painful and heart wrenching.

    So, yes, it's true that suicide is a horrible decision that destroys the lives of those left behind, but as someone who can't imagine living without the ability to see and parent my children....I can understand why so many men make that horrible decision.
    "Every noble impulse, every unselfish expression of love; every brave suffering for the right; every surrender of self to something higher than self; every loyalty to an ideal; every unselfish devotion to principle; every helpfulness to humanity; every act of self-control; every fine courage of the soul, undefeated by pretense or policy, but by being, doing, and living of good for the very good’s sake—that is spirituality." -David O. McKay

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

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  11. #26
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Well done kim for that great piece.

    Julie, what the fuck do you come here for?

  12. #27
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from haahoo View Post
    Well done kim for that great piece.
    Thanks, haahoo. I just finished sending my e-mails so I'll let you all know if I recieve any responses.
    "Every noble impulse, every unselfish expression of love; every brave suffering for the right; every surrender of self to something higher than self; every loyalty to an ideal; every unselfish devotion to principle; every helpfulness to humanity; every act of self-control; every fine courage of the soul, undefeated by pretense or policy, but by being, doing, and living of good for the very good’s sake—that is spirituality." -David O. McKay

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

    http://equalbutdifferent.blogspot.com/

  13. #28
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from haahoo View Post
    Well done kim for that great piece.

    Julie, what the fuck do you come here for?
    I have everything I need from men Haahoo and women who you consider important. I listened to all of you. And I am sorry for the cost to you and others and Kim of course. But I had to do it for my own stand.

    Did it change my opinion or views? No, it didn't.

    But I had to know if I was wrong about the world. Sorry again and I wish you all the best.
    Ignorance is the Oppressor, Vigilance the Liberator.

  14. #29
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from julie View Post
    I have everything I need from men Haahoo and women who you consider important. I listened to all of you. And I am sorry for the cost to you and others and Kim of course. But I had to do it for my own stand.

    Did it change my opinion or views? No, it didn't.

    But I had to know if I was wrong about the world. Sorry again and I wish you all the best.
    You are probably perfectly correct in your take of the world julie.

    But that does not mean you make a great deal of sense most of the time!!

    My views of the issues we face have not changed either over the years I have spent in the movement..

    But, I think I am getting more of an idea of who I can work with and who I cant!!

    At the end of the day, maybe like myself, you can only work with folk that you now for real in the real world..

    But, when you are online on forums etc, it would be nice for you to at least make the effort eh?


  15. #30
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    Re: Raise Your Voices

    Quote Quote from haahoo View Post
    At the end of the day, maybe like myself, you can only work with folk that you know for real in the real world..

    But, when you are online on forums etc, it would be nice for you to at least make the effort eh?

    Oh, well, life goes on.

    Stop replying to my comment. Don't you know how you should not feed into emotions of a woman yet. naughty boy!!!!
    Ignorance is the Oppressor, Vigilance the Liberator.


 

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