I've long been of the opinion that divorce has done more harm to our society than many of the maladies currently affecting it. Doesn't anyone believe in 'til death do us part anymore? It's really a symptom of our selfish, quick-fix society. I don't get my own way, I'm not happy, I want to have fun...I'll get a divorce. I get so sick of the phrase "I'm not happy". You're not happy? Then get happy, make yourself happy. Where did people ever learn that it is somebody else's job to make us happy. If YOU'RE not happy, then that's probably something that YOU need to fix. Looking for somebody else to make you happy or to fulfill you will never work. Nobody's perfect. Eventually, you're going to realize that the person you married is just as human and flawed as you are. The fairy tale will be ruined and you'll be left to deal with the reality that your spouse is merely mortal. And why should that person be responsible for completing or fulfilling you to begin with? Marriage is supposed to be about taking care of each other.

I think the only time divorce is acceptable is in instances of abuse and MAYBE infidelity. I'm sure some people would be appalled that I don't consider infidelity a blanket excuse for divorce, but if there's any way possible to salvage the marriage, it should be done, especially if there are children involved. I can't tell you how disgusting I find it that people are so quick to end their marriage when they have children. And, if we're being honest, women are guiltier of it than men. Nowadays, people go into marriage with the mindset that if it doesn't work out, they can get a divorce. Marriage should never be entered into unless you're 100% committed to making it work. The vast percentage of marriages that end in divorce don't end over abuse, they end over selfishness. Never mind the lives of innocent children are being destroyed...somebody's 'needs' aren't being met. In my opinion, if you choose to get married and have a family, then you're responsible to that. You're responsible to see to it that your children get raised in the best environment possible, and the best environment possible is not a broken home.

Today, things like integrity and honor mean very little, if they did, people would be a little more careful about honoring their vows. Vows like, 'in sickness or in health, for better for worse, richer or poorer'.....I don't remember anywhere in my marriage vows, 'until I get bored', 'until something better comes along', 'until I'm no longer recieving enough attention', or 'until things get difficult'. Marriage is difficult. I've been married for 15 years, and I was only 18 when I got married. It has not been easy, but that's not the point. I chose to get married. I chose to bring children into the world. I've always lived by the motto that you have the right to live your life however you want, as long as your rights don't take away the rights of others. I don't have the right to walk out on my marriage because it might be 'easier', because I'd be taking away my children's rights to be raised with both a mother and a father. I don't have the right to cheat on my husband, because that would be taking away his right to be in a monogamous relationship. There's a word I like to use that's not too popular nowadays...accountability. Be acountable for your choices. Be accountable for the lives you bring into this world. Life shouldn't be about momentary gatification, it should be about doing the right thing...even if it isn't easy.

I concur
Todays women have much to gain by destroying families.
They take have every incentive.

Americans have a lot to answer for. The dang fool who put those American aspirations in terms of 'Rights' has a lot to answer for. Life and Liberty are OK , but pursuit of Happiness???? To make these three equally important was a gross error of judgement. 'Happiness' has become the over-arching goal of life itself.

That apart Kim, I agree with your points.

And there are yet more arguements.

Divorce is shooting oneself in the foot.

The 'for better for worse, good times and bad, keeping oneself wholly for Thee', were not evolved into the marriage vows by arbitrary whim or some self-righteous bully's insistence.

Human maturity requires 'another'. A 'special other' who will stand by us even when we do wrong or fall from Grace. One who will help us up. So even infidelity, to my mind, is no grounds for divorce. The average adult will 'fall' in love some 3 or 4 times between 20 and 80. Usually with someone other than their partner. This has to be accomodated by both. It is normal and to be expected.

The one falling in love with someone else needs all the help they can get from their partner, to overcome and conquer the loss they need to take. No one likes to give something up or to let something go. But we have to if we are to grow up. Many are bound to fail this maturity test, this developmental stage. Failure needs help. Maybe some punishment when it is deliberate. But more, the person needs love and acceptance. Acceptance of their human frailty and help to grow stronger.

The partner betrayed also has hard work to do, choosing between Love enduring and kindly on the one hand and resentment, anger, malicious revenge - all soul destroying - on the other The errant partner can seek redemption through supporting and binding with the hurt one.

As for 'abuse', let us define that. A wicked, violent person can kill a marriage stone dead. But they are extremely rare. What passes for abuse today can be as little as an annoyed look or an objection to a spending spree.

Along with the importance of marriage and its vows we need to make people aware of not rushing in, demanding commitment - as woman mostly do - withing five minutes of meeting. The old year-long betrothal system enabled not only each partner to get a good idea of the other's character, but the families got that too and could intervene and stop a dreadful error being made.

Further too the growth issue. We can see that the path that human beings take is from a time of complete ignorance of themselves - as babies - to a time of full knowledge of themselves. Many do not reach that full knowledge. To gain that full knowledge requires a 'special other' in whom total trust is given, as there are parts of ourselves that we cannot see or know without someone else showing and telling. There is an interaction between what we know of ourselves and what others know of us, and we keep secrets. From most ordinary acquaintences, that is.

The same mechanism which enables us to reveal secrets to that one person in whom we have complete trust, is also the mechanism that permits them to see behind our fear and show us what we cannot see of ourselves for ourselves. Abandoning that trust or being abandoned by the one who is 'special' is devastating to the human soul. Growth can come to a halt. Self knowledge can be sent beyond reach. We can be prevented from being fully aware of who we are.

Most people today equate 'Lerve' with lust. Love is far more valuable and necessary.

On one hand I would have to agree with you. Too many people in the US have taken short cuts and have warped ideas of what marriage should be. On the other hand I don't think I would want to live in a country that didn't have divorce. There are so many women in other countries that are still beaten and treated only slightly better than cattle. Here is an example:

http://www.firstwivesworld.com/relev...rce-in-bahrain

So I would say in the instance of hating divorce it would be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. Divorce has given many women the only out they have from an abusive relationship, and abuse comes in many forms.

My parents divorced when I was a pre-teen and I supported it whole heartedly. They were not happy for many years. Did they fight in front of me? No, they would never do that. But children are not stupid. They can see when things aren't right.

I was lucky, my parents read every child psychology book they could get their hands on before I was born and they waited several years to have me. When they got divorced they did the same and they made sure I was raised in two loving and caring homes.

Do I believe in marriage? Of course I do. Marriage can be one of the most wonderful things in the world with that special person that loves you above all else. Do I think children should be raised by two people that are miserable? No, then that only shows them the example of a loveless marriage. And what kind of example is that?

I would rather see children raised by loving, caring, productive parents in separate homes than one not filled with love and laughter.

So again don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead learn how to bathe the baby better and show it love and how to be a productive part of society. Even it that means doing it from two homes.

Just my thoughts,
AntonioFWW

Posting a link to another female whining about "abuse" to leave her husband and destroy her family doesn't cut the muster. If I had 5 cents for every whiny female who blamed her husband and falsely claimed "abuse" to justify her divorce I would be the richest man in Babalon. Most females filing divorse claim "abuse" but behavior studies show that the real reasons for over 90% of them amounts to boredom with their husband.

I also wonder why you went all the way to Hahrain to find a link about "abuse." Under Islamic law the husband can divorce failry easily but doesn't because men respect our families. Under American law the female can divorce easily and we have few families left.

As for making divorce better, you can't make wrong into right by doing wrong more effectively.


Your experience may have been exceptional. Statistically, children from whole families turn out more successfully in life than children from broken homes. That difference holds even if the parents are actively fighting a lot. You say your parent's weren't actively fighting, so maybe your mother was just bored, like the large majority of females getting divorced in the US and other western nations.


[quote
]Do I believe in marriage? Of course I do. Marriage can be one of the most wonderful things in the world with that special person that loves you above all else. Do I think children should be raised by two people that are miserable? No, then that only shows them the example of a loveless marriage. And what kind of example is that?

I would rather see children raised by loving, caring, productive parents in separate homes than one not filled with love and laughter.

So again don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead learn how to bathe the baby better and show it love and how to be a productive part of society. Even it that means doing it from two homes.

Just my thoughts,
AntonioFWW[/quote]

It sounds like you have been schooled in feminist thinking, Antonio. You recite the feminist dogma about "abuse." You give us the "divorce is wonderful" mantra. But feminist doctrine doesn't make for good outcomes on average.

Your "two homes" advice is contradicted by statistics. One home is better than two. And its the home of the father that matters. A child raised with his or her father is always better off, on average, than being raised by mother or split homes.

You also don't seem to understand that marriage has little to do with "love." Marriage is a contract to join together and make children. Marriage is good when love is there too, but it is still good as a working relationship making a familily. The feminist whine that they don't love their husband any more and should therefore get divorced just doesn't hold water in real life.

Age old law putting the husband or patriarch in charge of his family is the best for the family. Feminists hate it and publish misandrist whines like that one from Bahrain, but the feminists can pound sand. The age old law is the best for children and families. Fathers are, by and large, the best authority that a family has. No amount of female whining will make females into fathers.

Blessings

Bob

I agree, Antonio, which is why I said it should only be acceptable in instances of abuse....abuse on either side. There are cases of real abuse that both men and women suffer through. I'm sure Mr. Wrinkler, had he forseen what his wife had in store for him, would have opted for a divorce.

Islamic law does not mean lawless, as it is told to us by Western feminists - the wife AND the husband in the Islamic world have different duties to fulfill, but both of them have obligations.

Islam is not like the Western world, where the woman can do what she likes to the disadvantage of the husband.
The Western marriage is basically a contract for a man full of obligations, but without any rights.
-----

About the basics in Islam:

A woman entering marriage in Islam does not need anything - except herself. She needs not even to be an Islamic woman, but Christian or Jew women are also accepted and welcome to marry an Islamic man.

Every husband at the time of marriage in Islam has the obligation to give his wife a certain amount of money, which she should keep as her security. - The amount of the dowry is clearly written in the marriage contract, and the woman has the right to keep own money, like in a banking account.

If the man divorces her, she can keep the dowry, has no obligation anymore against husband or children and she can just leave - and if she wants to marry again after a certain time of respect (possible pregnancy) she can do so and asking for a dowry again.

The wife can also file for divorce in Islam, it is more complicated, but it is clearly possible.

The problem, what feminists do not like in Islam:
Either the woman is single - and it is strictly forbidden to have a sexual relationship. - Or she is married, has to be faithful, and in this case she and her husband can do in their rooms whatever they like. - There is no 'spousal rape' or 'sexual harassment by the husband' possible in Islam.

A woman, regardless her religion, cannot be forced to marry in Islam. The choice is her's...either single and no fuck...or married and enjoy a sexual relationship. Islam is not lawless.

Hmmmm.

There are basics in our Judeo-Christian world too, but not many seem to care. In Islam a few more may care but there are an awful lot who don't.

Very nice contrast there Yohan. It's funny how people, yes mostly femikooks, have no issue using the ole compare and contrast to western practices routine.. The problem THEY seem to have is they are always comparing western law with say, Islamic law, and NEVER contrast.....

I never understood how these people can sit there with a serious face and complain about other societies as if they were evil or somesuch.... THEIR society is different than our... doesn't always mean it is WRONG.. or even right.

Sure, by OUR standards, things like dowrys are liken to purchasing the wife or even implicating that the woman is chatel.. But that is their way, who the hell are we to tell them it is wrong?

Nicely done Yohan.

TMOTS

Wow, it really is amazing that you guys are so hurt. I can tell that some woman has really hurt each of you to the core. I'm really sorry that has happened to you but I'm not of the opinion that women having the right to divorce and have basic rights in general is a bad thing.

Yes, I was fortunate to have two loving and thoughtful parents. I wish more people out there were as devoted as they were. But I'm not the only person that has divorced parents and I turned out successful. Many of my closest friends have divorced parents and we all are very successful. We have great jobs with internet companies, banks, TV and the stock exchange. Steven Spielberg is a child of divorce and so is Aretha Franklin. There are tons of people that came from divorced parents and they are happy and successful just as there are many messed up kids that came from parents that stayed together.

There are no guarantees and there is no sure thing, but by your thinking, half the country is going to raise messed up kids because half the country is divorced.

Rather than complain about women having simple rights perhaps men and women should learn more about each other before they get married and then if they still divorce both vow to take an active role in their children's lives. What happens, more often than not, is the father takes off and starts his life over (without the kids and the wife) while the mother is left to raise the kids.

Makes you think, why do so many people thank their mother's (and not their fathers) when they except awards or win the big game?

Just my thoughts,
Antoniofww

The rose colored glasses make everything so nice.

He "turned out all right" by which he means that he's been raised on feminist dogma that his mother fed him after she destryed his family.

Wait till some bitch accuses him of "abuse" and gets a "restraining order" on the advice of some lieyer, takes away his basic rights, takes his kids, and leaves him broke and enslaved. Sure, he's for "equal" rights for females.

Blessings

Bob