Quote from Billy

Awesome, very well put.

Why am I not surprised.

But this is for a certain audience. God loves America after all.

integrity morphs into "what is the maximum I can shake this dude down for " when she frogmarches her ex husband to be to the Family Court

somebody said a while ago that moralising wimyn are like a dog walking on its hind legs - if it is done at all it is not done well

Audience, Jools?

American?

I am the audience. You are the audience. "I Am who Am" is the audience.

Kim puts - again - the same quality that I have proposed should underpin any male 'Code".

Now why do you think we both chose the same incredibly difficult and absolutely essential point?

I am the audience - along with all women - because I am a man and I need to hear a woman say all the things Kim says. It shows me that there is someone, somewhere, who has breasts and a vagina and can be Trusted. I need that. God, we all need that here.

You, Jools, are the audience, as a woman who is addressed. Kim has initiated a difficult process here - with great courage - to outline a code in the same way as the men are attempting. This is a men's board and the immediate concern was that women should not be involved in dicussing a code for men. Amazin'. Yet Kim Trusts. She puts it here where there are just a tiny few women - who MUST contribute sensibly - and a lot of men. She has made no indication at all that men should butt out, expecting men here to say something.

God is the audience too. I would say that there are a very few here who would 'believe' that God is watching every letter of every word. Kim does.

So, Integrity.

Thanks Kim. You put it in terms we all understand.

Given a woman who can grasp Integrity and 'live' it, that quality that knows no gender but applies with a gender 'tone' and 'colour' and 'scent' just that slight bit differentially from the way men 'live' it, the current awful situation between men and women would not arise. I say the same for men too.

The examples of 'change of mind', constancy, commitment, are all very noticeable with women, and no less so with men.

To live Integrity is very difficult. It takes a mature adulthood. Part of our own is to recognise the difficulty and face it - and forgive the failures in others rather more readily than in ourselves.

I have constant difficulty with that.

Then we come to the crux. The crucial aspect that Integrity addresses. It is less 'us' than our ability to recognise 'good' from 'bad'; Right from Wrong. And choose.

I have said enough in this post and will invite others to address that.

OK, I had my dig when I commented to Billy who just didn't deserve it.

I'll tell you that I think I am going to an early grave just from being defiant. lol

But seriously ...

Kim this was beautiful. You said it more than well. I don't know the word between well and perfect. Hope you do!!!

Quote from Kim

"In all this world there is no substitute for personal integrity. It includes honor. It includes performance. It includes keeping one's word. It includes doing what is right regardless of the circumstances" -Gordon B. Hinckley


A quote I’m quite fond of is “Integrity is doing the right thing, even if nobody is watching”. When we have integrity we do what is right simply because it’s who we are and how we choose to define ourselves. We desire to do what’s right and we don’t accept anything less from ourselves, regardless of the circumstances. We don’t fall into the trap that we as women have made for ourselves….our selective morality where we’re able to rationalize away responsibility for our commitments. We stand up and say this is who we are, this is who we’ve decided to be….women of integrity and, as such, we cannot be anything less.








More...

The trouble with rights and wrongs is that they are notoriously difficult to pinpoint. Someone's rights could be seen as an encroachment on someone else's life.
The law, the judges, justice itself has wrestled with this, age old problem. Justice and rights are human concepts and they are as indefineable sense as religion is (the meaning of God for example).
But integrity is something more certain, more objective, e.g. to have the integrity not ot cause harm.
Therefore, integrity should be the "HOLY GRAIL" of an individual rather than the pursuit of his own rights, and, on this point, feminism is an abject failure.

NEVO

The trouble with rights and wrongs is that they are notoriously difficult to pinpoint. Someone's rights could be seen as an encroachment on someone else's life.

It becomes less difficult if we use the words in their contexts, Nevo. Right and Wrong have little to do with 'Rights'.

Quote from Percy

It becomes less difficult if we use the words in their contexts, Nevo. Right and Wrong have little to do with 'Rights'.

OMG words. Blah, blah, blah.

If it is not the feminists claiming to define them, it is the MRM.

Quote from Percy

It becomes less difficult if we use the words in their contexts, Nevo. Right and Wrong have little to do with 'Rights'.

Can you expand on this?
What's the difference between a right and rights?

NEVO

Nevo, I said - "Right and Wrong have little to do with 'Rights'. "

You ask what's the difference between a right and rights? One is singular; the other plural.

I was not talking of 'Rights' or 'a right', but that which is right and proper and that which is its antithesis.

Do I have to explain right and wrong?

It is right to be truthful. One does not have a 'Right' to be told the truth, except by a Public Official who is duty bound to but rarely does. or by someone you pay to tell you the truth (such as a Doctor).

It is wrong to untruthful as it distorts reality and proposes the inauthentic. A person of Integrity, as Kim shows in her anecdote, has a word that is trustable. It is irrevocably linked to his/her honour and standing. It is wrong to sell your reputation for a song. But you do not have a 'Right' to an unsullied reputation if you sing badly ! The singer is always more worthy than the song but the writer has 'Rights' to the Royalties.

It is right to be honest - say, if you have found $1000 in a wallet that has someone's name and address in it, it is right to return it. It is wrong to be dishonest and keep it. A person who has lost their wallet with $1000 does not have a 'Right' to have it returned.

I understand integrity. I understand it's value. I don't understand what it has to do with changing one's mind about something. Sometimes integrity leads to changing one's mind about something. Integrity is being true to your values. You're right, it's "doing the right thing even when no no one is watching."

Changing one's mind is not at issue, Tera. Is it?

We’re often presented with the image of women as whimsical creatures who are apt (and entitled) to changing their minds at the drop of the hat. This characteristic is portrayed as somewhat cute and endearing. I suppose if we’re talking about a penchant for rearranging the furniture this might hold true but it tends to extend into all aspects of our lives to the extent of frequently compromising our integrity and calling into question our ability to commit and be trusted.

I do not see Kim argueing that the acquisition of relevant conflicting knowledge ought not lead to questioning and a change of perspective.

Quote from Percy

Changing one's mind is not at issue, Tera. Is it?



I do not see Kim argueing that the acquisition of relevant conflicting knowledge ought not lead to questioning and a change of perspective.

No, I'm not, Percy. I honestly questioned whether or not to place it in the context of changing one's mind, but I like to keep things simple and on a level everyone can understand and relate to.

Obviously, changing one's mind is not always a negative, in fact, if it can be quite positive if it's indicative of learning, growth and enlightenment. I'm referring to a refusal to honor commitments and obligations, to be fickle, untrustworthy and unreliable because we've changed our minds, decided we want something else, are unhappy or feel unfulfilled........If we commit to something; if we take on an obligation, we should be accountable to that obligation, if we say we are going to do something, are going to be something.....we shouldn't allow ourselves the right to change our minds to the detriment of our others or in any way that compromises the value of our word.

Likewise, if we claim something is wrong, that certain behaviors are wrong and then engage in such behaviors under the excuse that circumstances have changed then we are also compromising our integrity. Right and wrong don't shift in conjunction with our circumstances and neither should our morality.

Quote from Kim

No, I'm not, Percy. I honestly questioned whether or not to place it in the context of changing one's mind, but I like to keep things simple and on a level everyone can understand and relate to.

Obviously, changing one's mind is not always a negative, in fact, if it can be quite positive if it's indicative of learning, growth and enlightenment. I'm referring to a refusal to honor commitments and obligations, to be fickle, untrustworthy and unreliable because we've changed our minds, decided we want something else, are unhappy or feel unfulfilled........If we commit to something; if we take on an obligation, we should be accountable to that obligation, if we say we are going to do something, are going to be something.....we shouldn't allow ourselves the right to change our minds to the detriment of our others or in any way that compromises the value of our word.



Likewise, if we claim something is wrong, that certain behaviors are wrong and then engage in such behaviors under the excuse that circumstances have changed then we are also compromising our integrity. Right and wrong don't shift in conjunction with our circumstances and neither should our morality.

Maybe it would be clearer to talk about integrity here, as you have, and marriage (commitments and/or trust issues) on the code part three?

Oh..and I should probably add...yes I do know that integrity and trust issues overlap, as do all parts of any moral code.