Quote:

Wage Discrimination Hurting German Women and Economy

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...558785,00.html

Odd, they get 80% of the wages yet 100% of the welfare payments and other special payments and subsidies that bump up their incomes for work they seem to want to be paid for while not actually doing..

Let us note another no-brainer, more obvious than a smack in the nuts...

This 'article' does not draw any attention to a single-factor behind why - aside from 'discrimination', which in reality, is a very small percent of the factors.

iNDIA kNIGHT usually anti male writes the following (I was suprised),
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4138063.ece
================
The Sunday Times

June 15, 2008


Face it, the right apprentice won



India Knight


div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited {color:#06c;}Was Sir Alan Sugar’s decision to pick an affable bloke instead of a “rottweiler” (her words) woman as his apprentice last week a sign that he, and by extension the business world in general, is dinosaurishly sexist and retrograde? It has certainly been read that way by any number of female commentators. I find this old chestnut of a theory unbelievably tedious. Why are women so keen always to be seen to be victimised, even when they clearly aren’t victimised at all?
Sugar picked the right two finalists in Lee McQueen and Claire Young. The latter, a mouthy, bossy, go-getting sort with no humility, poor interpersonal skills and no sense of her own shortcomings, was a brilliant saleswoman - but also, as was amply demonstrated over 12 weeks, a piece of work. She wasn’t a piece of work because she was a woman - she was a piece of work because she was a piece of work.
Much was made in the series of the “amazing” progress that she had made personally by, er, learning to pipe down every now and then. This apparently constituted a “journey”, ergo she should have won.
If there was sexism in the programme this is surely where it lay: in the idea that knowing when to shut up was such a big ask of any member of the female race that Young should have been garlanded with a £100,000-a-year job for managing to wait her turn and not interrupt. Granted, you’d praise your toddler to the skies for learning to wait his or her turn at circle time, but we’re talking about an adult woman who had been explicitly told that gobbiness would probably result in her being fired. It’s really not that impressive, is it?
Sometimes - often - the best person wins and it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gender. McQueen, also a brilliant salesman (as he demonstrated when asked, on the hoof, to sell a ballpoint pen to Karren Brady, the managing director of Birmingham City football club), clearly had the edge in that a) he’d never been brought back into the boardroom, thereby proving that he worked consistently hard and was liked by his teammates; and b) by showing a very endearing mixture of talent, enthusiasm and, it turned out, insecurity about his abysmal education record, which he lied about on his CV.
“I’ve got a chip on my shoulder about my education because I didn’t do very well at school,” he said last week. “I also once worked for four years as a catering manager at Harrow school, which was full of posh kids getting a great education. I think that might have something to do with my insecurities.”
(When he won anyway, despite having been caught lying and saying things such as “We was consciously appealing to the female genre”, my teenage sons immediately launched into a heartfelt rant about the utter futility of education and the utter rightness of leaving school immediately and running a stall in Camden market.)
McQueen is a sort of everyman, the kind of bloke you might bump into on any given night in any given bar and who’d make you laugh and entertain you without in any sense making you feel uncomfortable. This is, after all, the man who managed to sell a shedload of thongs at a bridal fair with charm and brio, but without ever overstepping the mark - easily done with an overfriendly bloke and women’s underwear.
He’s a nice, easy person, ambitious, keen, rough around the edges, likeable, determined - perfect Apprentice material. Why then does the “Claire Young was robbed” lobby feel that Sugar somehow has it in for women?
He doesn’t - but, incidentally, you could hardly blame him if he did. The female candidates in this year’s show spent their entire time bitching, backstabbing, bullying, scheming, lying and passing the buck. The men got on with it and managed to get over whatever petty arguments they had by the end of each episode. The women simply wouldn’t let theirs drop: some are continuing months after filming ended. This female trait is conveniently ignored when women complain of being overlooked or underpromoted, as if their gender exempted them from behaving decently.
In my experience, women are far harder to work with than men. Men don’t give you a crap task because they’re jealous of your shoes or mistrust you for months because you have good highlights or stand about “nursing her wrath to keep it warm”, as Robert Burns put it. Sometimes women don’t get jobs because they’re not very nice.
Anyway, let’s cut to the chase because there’s so much guff written about this. I’ll tell you what the issue is with women in business or women and work. It is extremely simple. It is not to do with sexist dinosaur male bosses or with male-dominated industries crushing our genius. It is not to do with glass ceilings. It is to do, very straightforwardly, with the number of hours we are prepared to put in. If you’re happy to work a 16-hour day and never see your children, you too can become a master of the universe. Simple as that, as McQueen might put it.
Men have been doing this for generations and the common interpretation is that they don’t mind, that there is no emotional cost, that they can just do it, guiltlessly, because they have a penis. It’s complete nonsense: ask any man who works impossible hours. There is a vast emotional cost. There are health costs. There is often a marital cost.
Why do we assume that men feel perfectly happy and breezy about never seeing their kids, living a truncated version of family life and claiming that it causes them no anguish? It clearly does but they do it anyway. Ask a woman to do it anyway and you’re a sexist pig. Why?
Few women are prepared to make that kind of sacrifice. This is entirely their right and good on them. However, it is surely both dishonest and intensely stupid to apportion blame - in the form of so-called corporate discrimination - to what is essentially a completely personal choice: power versus being there at bath time, conferences versus the park, business trips versus getting home in time for homework, giving “110%” versus sleeping more than five hours a night.
Why blame somebody else for a subjective decision? If you’re a woman who wants to run the world, giving up the things that everyone else in your position has also given up, go right ahead. If you don’t want to give the things up, do something else and stop whining. And if you’re Lee McQueen, good luck to you.
Nice guys finish first - something that not-so-nice women might do well to notice.

• Have your say

Nice to read an objective view on gender politics from a woman writer - not a first, though not far off it. But be careful, look what "The Sisters" had to say about Erin Pizzey.

Watch your back!

Ken Leyland, Liverpool, U.K.

My wife always hated working for other women.

She found that on the whole they were emotional, bullying, unreliable and catty.

Whilst I have worked with some realy great women I have always been struck how, when the going gets tough, women often turn on their colleagues. Men form a team.

Geoff M, Birmingham, England

It doesn't really matter who won, or who deserved to. All that mattered, and was ever going to decide the outcome, was Sir Alan's preference.

M Woolf , London, UK

Re: last comment, if we brought up our girls like our boys, they wouldn't have low self esteem. Every women suffers bitchiness from other women. Its depressing
Re: ridiculous hours - one can only demand equal treatment for equal work. Can't have cake and eat it.DAMN! Also how do we define succes

Audrey H-G, Prestwick, Scotland

Well, if you really want to waste your life chasing a £100,000 p/a job then why would you expect to get on with your colleagues, male or female.

If you go in for such selfish reasons then you desrve to be stabbed in the back, with an entire knife set from Claridges, several times, a week.


Ed, London,

On gender: the article sort of misses the point. A parent really ought to be bathing & putting the kids to bed if we want the next generation to grow up healthily and to look after us in our hard earned dotage. But who? Perhaps women would be happy to put in 16 hours a day knowing the men were home.

CT, London, UK

I've run a police operational control room with 70+ staff and the top 5 controllers included 3 women. Yet in the same building there was a department that was all female and it was gossip, moaning and emotional. What we need is a mix to get the best out of both.

Derek Smith, Brighton, UK

A well reasoned overview. Nicely done. The bra burners got our attention and had their say. They entered the workforce in droves and discovered that, while they may be capable of doing most any job a man can do, they might not want to. They just want to be asked.

Leo Muzzy, Newfield, United States

Try being the only male in the workplace and you will soon discover that women treat you the way women are treated in a largely male work environment. I have had such an experience and what I concluded is that both genders succumb to the tyranny of the majority and wreak vengeance on the minority.

Jim, New York City, USA

I totally agree that women are generally now treated equally in the workplace - if they aren't getting to the top it is because they value their quality of life and that shouldn't be seen as a bad thing - I am glad someone has finally pointed this out!

Emma, London, UK

Spot on India.

You've summed up in this article everything that is wrong with the modern work ethic where women are concerned.

Men have faults however I dread to think that those women on the show are typical of women in the workplace today.

Utterly disgracefull behaviour

Well done Lee

Shaun, Newcastle, Tyneside

Sexism at work: women making non-specific allegations about a man, refusing to cite specific examples. Repeating this then expecting a woman to rule over a woman complaining about man.

I'm telling you, both should be up before tribunals. One for not putting up, the other for process incompetence.

Rhys Jaggar, Leeds, UK

India Knight handily forgets - or perhaps didn't see - the episode when Lee merrily savaged one of the weakest, most vulnerable and least offensive candidates, an attack which resulted in a display of compassion from Raef, a million-carat gent.

bob gallagher, london,

My experience of working with women is that they are convinced they are hard done by and entitled to revenge on men. Very convenient if you simply like being unpleasant or see an advantage.

This was neatly summed up in the 1970s - when the worst began - by the phrase 'Men must be punished'.

Mike Newland, London, England

The apprentice is a sizable debacle, even by the yardsticks of absurdity which uderpins most modern television these days. It has naught to do with raw business acumen, and all to do with the choked cult of celebrity, show business and theatre. The real businessmen are the men who conjured this show

sadaat, London,

Everyone lies on their CV - yes about litle things like conversational french, reading poems and the like - not about attending Uni - are we now living in a society where we think a lie like that makes someone a "cheeky chappy"?
RD, Coatbridge

Richard, Coatbridge,

When I was an employer, I found male staff spent their time grandstanding, working out how 'underpaid' they were & palming off 'demeaning' jobs to female staff. The women multi-tasked, were quicker, responsive & put up with their lazy male colleagues while running homes & raising kids, too.

anne, bournemouth,

On working with men vs women debate, you really need both in any workplace to bring balance and a better synergy. As for which gender to work for, it doesn't matter, the requried attributes like 'inspiring' and 'proactive' aren't exclusive to any sex. Sweeping generalisations less and merit more!

Margaret, Dublin, Ireland

Wow - a great - and very insightful - article! Thank you Ms. Knight! I think one thing more should be said, though: if a male candidate for the job acted "as badly" (my words) as Ms. Young did, would it have mattered if that he was a man - would he have still been more likely to be chosen?

Bob, Moorpark, USA

I have often heard the same observation, almost always from women who don't have a chip on the shoulder, that they would rather be the only female in a work group of men than work in an office filled with other women.

And good point about making choices and sacrifices. Very good article.

gb, Austin, USA

Excellent article! I have female colleagues who say how difficult it is to work with other women, esp. those in more senior positions. The main complaint is that women dish out personal attacks that have nothing to do with the task at hand. They also take criticism personally and hold grudges.

Alistair, London,

I am so glad I chose to dump the career rat-race; give me my home, hubby and kids anytime.

wendy, belfast, northern ireland

In my opinion, the problem lies with greedy and exploiting attitude of the company rather than with one's personality... no one, woman or man, should be asked or expected to work long hours. We should all start giving more importance to other aspects of our lives and not only to money.... idealist?

gabriella, london, uk

A very disappointing article India. I have worked in male and female environments, and have come across good and bad bosses and colleagues of both sexes. However, the worst behaviour I have ever experienced was in a male dominated environment where female staff were bullied relentlessly.

MC, Birmingham, UK

A journalist with some good sense. Cohesive, comprehensible, accurate, and a thoroughly concise explanation of why women are so often negatively viewed by people like me, as hypocritical, double standard, 'do as we say, not as we do' individuals. Kudos for telling it like it is.

TheRockofAges, Tampa, USA/FL

Perhaps the difference is in how men learn to be competitive while playing within teams. And that women, to date, have had less opportunity and desire to do the same.

It might explain the competitiveness of men during the task but the ability to get over it following the task.

Paul, Toronto, Canada

On his CV 'mis-writing':

'I suppose I should have shared the actual situation more correctly'.

Nice. And how you get to finish first.

Peter , Ross on Wye, UK

I assume then, that if it was Fred Knight who wrote this piece, the Times would have had a million and one comments from women in a strop by now?

John, Malta,

Great article. Lee was by far the most worthy winner and not just because he did an excellent job but because he is such a great, humble & honest bloke.

I'm a woman (have been working for over 20 years) and have had women bosses and your comments are 100% correct.

Well done Lee & Sir Alan.

Kim, London,

A well balanced article. Thank goodness for India Knight.

Jez, London,

No one mentions it, but Lee did have good ideas as well, like on the advertising episode, he would happily spout ideas until something stuck instead of just criticising

adrian, London,

Here here, how refreshing to read some common sense!

Andrew, Wirral,

As you hold, men, too, are unhappy with working 16 hours a day. We are not blaming men for a subjective decision - their decision or "personal sacrifice", as you call it, inflicts on the entire work force, keeping the demands of employers perhaps too high.

Christine, Copenhagen, Denmark

Surely some blame must lie with the macho long hours culture?
Presenteeism is a major problem with British employers. There's no incentive to work smarter rather than harder, because there's the attitude that, if you're not there 12+ hours per day, you're not working hard enough.

Emma, London, United Kingdom

What CAN you say ?.
Well put..... that is all !


Nigel Thain, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire

I have worked under a variety of men and women. The men are always more worried about, "Is the job done and is it done correctly?" while the women are always worried about what people are wearing and a million little stupid things. Women can be catty and I would much rather work under a male boss.

Virginia, Los Angeles, USA

The entire conceit of the show is ridiculous." I am so great at business because my friends and family tell me so." I am a market trader in Amsterdam. Many of us make at least 100,000 pounds a year. Never having to work beyond 6 p.m. I say no thank you to monkey suit culture. Who is best off?

Lamont , Amsterdam, The Netherlands

80s mags showed women had to be surgeons etc - women are realising that many need talent and drive- hence the return of the dom. goddess. I'm man - if I dont put in the hours my wife, daughter and I have no home or money. simple as that. I dont work for fun . I have no choice.



andy, milnthorpe, cumbria

I am a woman and I totally agree!! Lee was better. He won more than Claire and performed better in the tasks. I can't understand the statement that says "Claire was robbed"!! No she was not.

Anne, raeding, uk

As a woman I can't agree more with you about how tough it is to work with other women. I have always said that women should be more like men at work; and learn to take things on the chin and not take things personally. Women can't expect to succeed whilst wanting to be treated with kid gloves.

MP, London, UK

Well put, as only a woman would be allowed to say, of course.

mike, Rennes, France

• Read all 41 comments

• • Have your say

The best part is this the "Statistisches Bundesamt" (Federal Statistical Office of Germany) says sth else:


http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/port..._285__623.psml

"Aus dem geschlechterspezifischen Verdienstabstand kann nicht geschlossen werden, dass Frauen im gleichen Unternehmen für die gleiche Tätigkeit anders bezahlt werden als ihre männlichen Kollegen. Die Verdienstunterschiede zwischen Frauen und Männern lassen sich vielmehr durch Unterschiede in der männlichen und weiblichen Arbeitnehmerstruktur erklären. Diese sind beispielsweise gekennzeichnet durch Unterschiede im Anforderungsniveau, der Verteilung auf besser und schlechter bezahlte Wirtschaftszweige, der Größe der Unternehmen, der Zahl der Berufsjahre, der Dauer der Betriebszugehörigkeit und des Ausbildungsniveaus."

Which basicly means....women don´t get paid less for exactly the same job.

Even though the statistic is known since 2005 it is never mentioned anywhere. It just seems they want to do something to please the women because the EU says so.....

It is interesting to note, that nowhere else is the percentage of young men refusing marriage and family/children so high than in Germany.
Now there are 43 percent of all young men (18-40) in Germany, who prefer a life without commitment. Divorce rate is somewhat between 50 (rural area) to 68 percent (in cities).

Young men in Germany are working very hard, often many hours overtime to be competitive with immigrants from Eastern Europe. - They are unwilling to spend money for local women and other amusements, but prefer a weekend in Russia and summer vacation in Thailand.

I cannot blame them after working 60 to 90 hours a week....
They deserve a rest, consider retirement age is 67 years for men in Germany, one of the highest age I ever heard.

Females are earning less, but why? Pay per hour is the same...

Do some simple math, and you know the answer...

Just more of the same old whiney women demanding more for less.

.

Not to assert that Europeans have some sort of lock on ideological dogma, but they sure are good at it:

America has long considered Europe to be a threat to our economic dominance. If the above type of reasoning has any prevalence in European thinking, then I don't think we Americans will have very much to worry about.