James, what the good PUAs do is the evolutionary psychology of gender interaction, since the whole field of evo-psych is far wider, even though fascinating too. Since I am a woman, I don't really gain anything out of having 'game', but the evolutionary psychology part is interesting to me.

Speaking 'professionally', Evolutionary Psych is a doddle of a field. You can make up whatever you like without ever having to provide any actual proof. Speculations can make careers.

Donkeys have four legs, so they evolved. They used to have one. Then two. Then something happened. On the other hand they might have been gills when they were fish. Donkey-fish. Wow ! But then, Rainink, Katz and Doggs et al have shown conclusively that fish don't usually have hairy ears. They did a study. Pick-up-artists though......? There's a book coming out.

I'm confused....Percy, your post seemed to melt my brain. Can you paraphrase it to something more digestible? I'm afraid my own research has burnt a few holes in my brain over the last few days.

Just to be sure everyone knows where I stand. I do not consider the PUA community to be either friend or foe. I consider individual self-proclaimed PUAs either ethical in the use of the knowledge they have, or unethical.

I do not personally promote the use of PUA community resources in order to garner the same knowledge that can be found within academe, however, I see it's potential value for those who do not have the wither-all to read several thousand years of history, great works of art, and obscure studies. I do not find the general PUA mentality (as it stands right now) furthering the ends of ending institutionalized misandry in our societies........I think it USES that playing field to further individual selfish ends by finding validation in another human being at the expense of REAL self-fulfillment.

Some PUA "schools" indeed pander to whatever social mores are in fashion in a given society at a given time, others however are more on schools on "how to be a man" and some (lie Gary Brodsky) are very anti feminist and PC and he states this quite clearly.

Personally I have downloaded (!) and listend/watched a lot of their material. I have no shame in admitting that I did pick up a lot of interesting facts and information about men and women and thanks to it my relations with women have been greatly improved, so I encourge others to listeb to their stuff. Some PUA schools are not ethical, but thats like saying some companies are also not ethical.

As you say James, a lot of the material is out there in classical works, but PUA stuff tends to condense it down, and in my experience, it has only been a positive influence on my life.

I'm totally lost with this thread, because.....

Pussy is available, always and everywhere. It's all about price versus value.
In South-East Asian countries it's sold openly, but let the buyer beware.
In the west it's vastly overpriced like most western goods.
The electronic and electrical appliances may be very durable and come with a guarantee. A one, two or five year guarantee on a computer is common in the west and better than you can get on a computer that's sold in Asia.

The pussy has no guarantee. Nobody here will pay even for a light-bulb until they've seen it light up. Meanwhile, western men will cough up money for a brand name and a fake promise.

Are PUAs con-artists or discerning consumers?

Yan Yan, what you say is ANOTHER facily surrounding the PUA movement.

PUA is about picking up women but that less than half of the story - the main element in PUA is BEING A MAN - or rather in western PC culture how to become a man.

The early PUA stuff was often based on tricks and openers - a lot of scgools - take Gary Brodsky or David Deangel NEVER give a pick up line or "opener" - they say its all a matter of attitude, and that ones attitude is the magnet for women. Thse guys say "be an authentic man and women will run to you. Be a PC nice guy and you will be a loser".

So, from this perspective, the some PUA schools are "schools on how to become a man". And where in our socities can men learn how to be men? Its almost illegal to be a man nowadays!

Percy, all of psychology is. Actually, the only psychologist I saw being caught in making up their own research and samples have been the non-evolutionary ones.

Yan Yan, if you're a Western man in Asia and can't get laid without paying, you're foolish. All the men I knew who traveled there couldn't get women off them - but again, no wonder, considering how Asian men usually are.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

Percy, all of psychology is. Actually, the only psychologist I saw being caught in making up their own research and samples have been the non-evolutionary ones.

Yan Yan, if you're a Western man in Asia and can't get laid without paying, you're foolish. All the men I knew who traveled there couldn't get women off them - but again, no wonder, considering how Asian men usually are.

Wait, exactly how are Asian men?

Wow, that sounds racist.

Reality is racist and sexist. They have lower testosterone, which makes them be more feminine and hence less attractive and less aggressive and they're also not very endowed down there. There are other things about them like this too, which makes any white man who goes to Asia and can't get laid a loser.

Quote from le jacquelope

Wait, exactly how are Asian men?

Wow, that sounds racist.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

Reality is racist and sexist. They have lower testosterone, which makes them be more feminine and hence less attractive and less aggressive and they're also not very endowed down there. There are other things about them like this too, which makes any white man who goes to Asia and can't get laid a loser.

And what information or studies support your ridiculous claim?

I bet the researchers you want to cite are the same ones that also find men to be less intelligent than women. They're probably the same "researchers" that said the male/Y chromosome is unstable.

You, sir, are engaging in the game of disparaging a whole race of males to prop yourself up as superior competition for women. You're playing the very game that women want you to play. The moment you start bashing other men to look good with women you have already lost!!!

Quote from le jacquelope

And what information or studies support your ridiculous claim?

I bet the researchers you want to cite are the same ones that also find men to be less intelligent than women. They're probably the same "researchers" that said the male/Y chromosome is unstable.

You, sir, are engaging in the game of disparaging a whole race of males to prop yourself up as superior competition for women. You're playing the very game that women want you to play. The moment you start bashing other men to look good with women you have already lost!!!

Take a look at my picture. Pretty sure RebelliousVanilla is female, think deeply about what she just said + my picture = female.

Quote from Duran

Take a look at my picture. Pretty sure RebelliousVanilla is female, think deeply about what she just said + my picture = female.

Regardless, the mods need to step in. Men bashing whole races of men just plays right into the feminazi agenda.

Fuuuuuck PC. Say what you fucking mean, people. If you hide your prejudices then when will anyone have an opportunity to correct them? I can tolerate anything except ad hominem attacks.

I'm pretty sure that people like foreign people in general. It's somewhat interesting, it's exotic, it's sometimes taboo. It's something to brag about. It's the subject of many bodice rippers AND hardcore pornos, so both sexes seem to get off on it. I'm actually in Asia, and there's no noticeable difference besides height and the way they dress. The women complain about them in bed, but people will complain about anything if you'll lend them an ear.