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  1. #1
    cutiger1903's Avatar
    cutiger1903 is offline Established Member
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    Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing | Mail Online

    Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing

    By Jane Gordon


    Last weekend, at a family wedding in the country, I was overwhelmed by an emotion that has, in the last year, become only too familiar to me.

    Sitting in a stifling marquee, listening to my cousin Sally's husband making the traditional father-of-the-bride speech, I was overcome by a feeling that was part envy, part guilt and part regret.


    My cousin's marriage, which has lasted for 25 years, is by no means perfect - what marriage is? - but against the odds, she has achieved something that is now, and always will be, beyond my grasp.


    A lost life: Jane Gordon with her husband and son in 1999, before her divorce


    As I looked at her sitting happy and radiant at the top table, laughing uproariously at her husband's far from funny jokes, I realised that, in a world that has horribly devalued the institution of marriage, she was reaping the benefits of putting the love and security of her family first, before any disagreements she might have with her husband in the rough and tumble of daily life.

    Watching her united with her husband on such an emotional occasion reminded me sharply of exactly what I had lost - but had no idea I was losing - seven years ago, when I got divorced from my husband, the father of my three children, after 25 years together.


    Our relationship had broken down, I can now see, not because of any petty irritations such as his lateness or my untidiness, but because we had both moved irrevocably away from each other.


    In the past few years of our marriage, I was more absorbed in my children and my career than I was in my husband while he, feeling increasingly isolated, simply switched off.

    It's a scenario that will be familiar to many couples. But how many of them choose to separate, and how many have the gumption to stick it out?

    The trouble is nobody tells you the truth about divorce. They tell you it's a 'difficult' experience, and it's generally accepted that the process sits somewhere near the top of the ten most stressful life events.

    But in the main it is regarded by society as a necessary evil. A milestone which, in an age when two in five UK marriages will fail, millions of us will go through at some point in our lives.

    Indeed, in many ways, divorce is given a more positive spin in our confused modern world than marriage is.

    The drawbacks of divorce are believed to be mostly either financial - as if the splitting up of the spoils of a life together were the very worst part of the process - or the fallout experienced by the children.


    Little is ever said about the longer-term effects of divorce on the couple. No one ever points out that the repercussions of a marital split will reverberate down the timeline of your life forever.

    This week, the Conservatives published a report commissioned by Iain Duncan Smith which proposed a three-month 'cooling off' period for couples considering divorce.


    But the idea that couples would be ready to rethink their break-up after such a short period is unrealistic.

    Change in family dynamics: Jane and her family before the divorce, now special occasions involve jugging the needs of her step family as well


    As I have discovered the hard way, it is only now, seven years after I received my decree nisi, that I am starting to realise the gravity of what I have done.

    If it has taken me this long for the seismic shockwaves of divorce to really hit home, how are warring couples expected to take an informed decision about separation when they are in the midst of the rows, the tension and the recrimination that so often accompany the death throes of a marriage?


    It is only now that I am experiencing something akin to the seven-year 'itch' of marriage; the seven-year 'ache' of divorce, a regular recurrence of the emotion I experienced at that recent wedding - a pang, a regret for what has gone for ever.

    There is much in my post-divorced life that I am grateful for and happy about. I have gained a new partner and two stepchildren, and our 'blended' family is more harmonious than anyone could have expected.


    My ex-husband, who is a media consultant, has 'moved on' to a perfectly ordered and elegant bachelor apartment and a social life (with a series of ever-younger girlfriends) that is the envy of his old married friends.

    On the surface, we have 'come through' our split relatively unscathed. But however contented I might be with my new partner Robin - and he with me - we realise that our relationship is, well, somehow second-best.

    Our true loyalties lie not with our new 'blended' family, but with our own biological children and the ex-partners from whom we were both amicably divorced.

    The important occasions in family life which I used to love - birthdays, Christmas and so on - are now difficult, trying times.

    They are unsatisfactory no matter how hard we try; whether my partner and I attempt - as we have on several occasions - to unite our new and old lives or agree to simply be apart for the 'sake' of our children.

    Still going strong: Jane admires women like Cheryl Cole who can get past their husband's infidelity for an enduring marriage


    Now, for example, we spend Christmas apart - each ensconced with our children and ex-partners - which causes huge tension between us and has made us both dread the annual celebrations.

    When my husband and I parted, my view of divorce was simplistic. I believed in the notion of divorce as a clean break and imagined a 'fresh start' would solve all my problems.


    It wasn't a decision made lightly, but I had no idea of the true complexity of unravelling a life that had been led in tandem with someone else for more than 20 years.

    It was the death of my parents, within six months of each other in 2008, that was the catalyst for my change of heart.


    At my father's funeral, my brother made a moving address about the formidable achievements of an extraordinary man. He concluded that the greatest achievement of all was his remarkable partnership - over 60 years - with my mother.

    The fact that I had not been able to give my own children the security that I had taken for granted shamed and upset me almost as much as the loss of my adored parents.


    My children hadn't lost their parents when my husband and I divorced, but they had lost their family home and the continuity of family life that makes the journey from childhood to adulthood so much more comforting and secure.

    It was at that funeral that I first experienced the feeling - part envy, part guilt and part regret - that has haunted me ever since.

    With my new partner sympathetically sitting by my side and my ex-husband (who shared so much of my family history and yet had somehow been edited out of it), standing in the gallery, I truly understood what I had lost.


    And there have been countless other moments in the past year when I have experienced similar feelings.


    Last month, I attended a dinner party thrown by a close female friend whose own marriage had shifted perilously close to the edge of divorce, shortly after mine did, because her husband had an affair.

    At the time of my break-up, my view of other people's marriages was as skewed as my view of my own, and I viewed her reluctance to divorce in a cynical way - imagining that her main motivation was her fear of losing her status as a married woman.

    But I now see there was a much more selfless reason for her tenacity. Because a marriage, however imperfect, isn't just important in the happy moments of life - a child's graduation or wedding for example - but also in the bad times.

    Shortly after my friend and her errant husband were reunited, he lost his high-flying City job and he now admits that it would not have been possible for him to recover from that (they started a successful new business together) without her love and support.


    Their relationship has changed - my friend admits that she is still wounded by his infidelity - but losing her trust in him for a time is nothing to what she would have lost had she gone ahead with her divorce.

    Back then, I couldn't understand her ability to accept his behaviour. But now I have nothing but admiration for the way she was able to take a longer view of her own marriage.


    Indeed, I have a similar sense of admiration and envy for a handful of other still-married friends whose relationships I had viewed somewhat cynically because they displayed such open animosity towards each other.


    I do two? Jane is unsure whether she will marry her new partner due to the scars left by the failure of her first marriage (file photo)


    A good marriage - I now realise - is dependent upon the ability of both partners occasionally to be selfless and to compromise.

    It is, of course, ironic that divorce has strengthened my belief in marriage. But then the years haven't just changed my view of divorce; they have inevitably blurred my memory of the reasons for our split.

    Somewhere in my new home there is a large brown envelope filled with the reasons why we parted, duly noted down by lawyers, but the passage of time has made those mutually exasperating irritations seem petty.

    In 2002, they were real and seemingly insurmountable. Had someone told me the truth about divorce then - explained exactly how, in the years ahead, it would impact on my life - perhaps we would still be together.
    It is impossible to go back, but at the same time my divorce makes it difficult for me to move forward.


    Maybe one day my new partner and I will marry, but the impact of our break-ups - he divorced several years before me - has so far prevented us from making a legal commitment to each other.


    Our mutual fears that re-marriage will somehow invalidate our original families, and his concerns about the financial loss he would endure should our marriage subsequently break down, make the notion of a wedding unlikely.

    But my divorce hasn't just had a major impact on the likelihood of re-marrying. I worry, too, that it has affected my children's view of marriage.

    Will the repercussions of my break-up not only reverberate down the timeline of my life but also the timelines of my children's lives?


    My daughters were 19 and 22 when I divorced and my son, who lives with me, was just ten.

    Seven years on, my daughters are both much more focused on their careers than their love-lives, and show no sign of settling down in the way that my cousin Sally's daughter - several years younger - has done.


    The long-term effects of my divorce, then, may not only deny me the opportunity to be a bride again and thus, in some way, legitimise my new relationship in the eyes of the world.

    But they also could prevent me from being the mother-of-the-bride and - ultimately - a grandmother.

    To paraphrase William Congreve's famous quote: 'Divorce in haste, repent at leisure.'
    Ok, the girlfriend seems pissed that I find this funny. But, it reminds me of the old saying, "the grass is not always greener."

  2. #2
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    The writer gets no sympathy from me, she admits she sidelined her husband in the last few years before her divorce.

    No-fault divorce and the lucrative outcome of divorcing for women will ensure a steady increase in it.

    Why marry just one man and remain loyal, when a woman can speculate in numerous marriages and accumulate ill-gotten gains incrementally - with lawyers and the state participating in the plunder.

    Sure, there are women solidly committed to the sanctity of marriage, but how does a fellow differentiate between a good un and a scammer until it's too late? It's too much like high stakes gambling for me.

    Divorce has become a business opportunity for unscrupulous women, and a means for feminism to undermine the institution of marriage, as well as many other parasitical entities tearing off strips.

    Given that 2 out of every 5 marriages end in divorce, it's equivalent to 40% of all prospective grooms piling up all their monetary wealth and setting fire to it.
    Last edited by Celtic Druid; 17th-July-2009 at 02:21 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    That's too bad!!

    She fucked herself over, now she has to live with her blunder!!!!

  4. #4
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from Billy View Post
    It just goes to show that women shouldn't be allowed to make grown up decisions.
    why not?


    family courts back them 100%

  5. #5
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from Zuberi View Post
    That's too bad!!

    She fucked herself over, now she has to live with her blunder!!!!
    don't forget...she fucked her husband...her kids...their future...their kids future all for a peice of greener pastures that may or may not have been there.

  6. #6
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    The writer of that article DOES have my sympathy.

    She is belateldly reaping the harvest that I do not wish on anyone but recognise as due and necessary for her development.

    She is recognising error. Hers. She is recognising feelings - envy, guilt, regret - which feminists refuse point blank to acknowledge as their drivers.

    She has started to re-appraise and take responsibility.

    That is what I, for one, want women to do.

    She still has a long way to go. For instance she claims that 'no one told her' when in fact it is well known that divorce is damaging.

    Here is an article that is quite a few years old - that she, as an educated woman - OUGHT to have known about.

    Does Divorce Make People Happy?

    Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

    Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom.

    Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.

    Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2

    The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.

    The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery.

    This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.

    Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well.

    The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.

    The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.

    Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?

    To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

    Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.

    In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.

    In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.

    Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.

    The Powerful Effects of Commitment

    Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.

    The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier.

    But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.

    Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?

    The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.

    Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.

    On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.

    More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.

    Other Findings

    Other findings of the study based on the National Survey Data are:

    The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) took place to adults who had been happily married when first studied five years earlier. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.
    Unhappy marriages are less common than unhappy spouses; three out of four unhappily married adults are married to someone who is happy with the marriage.

    Staying married did not typically trap unhappy spouses in violent relationships. Eighty-six percent of unhappily married adults reported no violence in their relationship (including 77 percent of unhappy spouses who later divorced or separated). Ninety-three percent of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce reported no violence in their marriage five years later.


    Endnotes

    1. Examples of the "divorce assumption:" In a review of Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So Well by Ashton Applewhite in Kirkus Reviews, the reviewer writes that "if Applewhite's figures are correct, three-fourths of today's divorces are initiated by women, and if her analysis of the situation is correct, they are better off, at least psychologically, for having taken the big step." The book's publisher describes the book this way: "Cutting Loose introduces 50 women . . . who have thrived after initiating their own divorces. . . . [T]heir lives improved immeasurably, and their self-esteem soared." In an oped in the New York Times, Katha Pollit asks, "The real question . . . [is] which is better, a miserable two-parent home, with lots of fighting and shouting and frozen silences and tears, or a one-parent home (or a pair of one-parent homes) without those things" (June 27, 1997). In a review of The Good Divorce by Constance R. Ahrons in Booklist, we are told that Ms. Ahrons "offers advice and explanations to troubled couples for whom 'staying together for the sake of the children' is not a healthy or viable option."

    2. Spouses were asked to rate their overall marital happiness on a 7-point scale, with 1 being the least happy and 7 the most happy. Those who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 were considered to be very unhappy in their marriages. Almost 8 out of 10 adults who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 gave that same marriage a 5 or more when asked to rate their marriage five years later.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from outdoors View Post
    don't forget...she fucked her husband...her kids...their future...their kids future all for a peice of greener pastures that may or may not have been there.
    Yeah, it's a damn shame isn't!!!

  8. #8
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    I know I've talked about my 15 year long relationship many times on this forum and yes it was exactly as I said it was, but, no marriage is "all bad"...and eight years later after my divorce I still have pangs of sorrow and wish it could have been different. There are things I miss. I miss him sometimes. I care about him still. Love isn't something you can just turn off like a switch. It just doesn't work that way. If only it did...! Then there'd be no moments that come and go like painful torture- moments where you recall certain words, times, places, events, expressions...they're forever with you. You know the ones I mean. The reason for a smile on your face that no one else understands...or the reason for the tears. Love is like that. It leaves a permanent imprint, a memory- a story... and it cannot be erased. And as much as that causes pain sometimes, there's also joy and I'm glad I have some good memories. Sometimes I think it's the good memories, though, that hurt so much

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
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  9. #9
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I know I've talked about my 15 year long relationship many times on this forum and yes it was exactly as I said it was, but, no marriage is "all bad"...and eight years later after my divorce I still have pangs of sorrow and wish it could have been different. There are things I miss. I miss him sometimes. I care about him still. Love isn't something you can just turn off like a switch. It just doesn't work that way. If only it did...! Then there'd be no moments that come and go like painful torture- moments where you recall certain words, times, places, events, expressions...they're forever with you. You know the ones I mean. The reason for a smile on your face that no one else understands...or the reason for the tears. Love is like that. It leaves a permanent imprint, a memory- a story... and it cannot be erased. And as much as that causes pain sometimes, there's also joy and I'm glad I have some good memories. Sometimes I think it's the good memories, though, that hurt so much
    I suppose I can see where you're coming from!
    I don't think I've told you this but I've never actually taken a woman to bed nor loved one!!!
    Maybe I am just a kid with a bad temper, who knows, who cares!!!!

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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from Zuberi View Post
    I suppose I can see where you're coming from!
    I don't think I've told you this but I've never actually taken a woman to bed nor loved one!!!
    Maybe I am just a kid with a bad temper, who knows, who cares!!!!
    It's o.k., Zuberi. You're young and you'd be surprised, maybe, about what the future could have in store for you that you can't even imagine right now. Have you ever seen the Disney movie "The Jungle Book"? Do you remember Mowgli and how throughout the movie he was quite certain he never wanted to leave the jungle? But at the end....he did leave the jungle. Do you remember why?

    I know, I know...it's just a movie. I love Disney movies. They almost always have a happy ending.

    Real life has ups and downs, and nothing stays the exact same way forever. Which is kind of cool, if you think about it. It's cool when things are going bad, because then you can rest assured they'll be getting better. My grandma used to tell me that the key to living a long and happy-enough life (she lived to be 94) is to "be adaptable," and to not dwell on death. She used to tell me it's a waste of a life to spend your time living worrying about dying. She said it didn't make sense. Grandma said a lot of wise things before her Alzheimer's set in.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  11. #11
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    I was married for 8 months when I was 17
    her filing for divorce 1 day after I was sentenced to prison was probably the nicest thing a woman ever did for me

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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from Aug9th-LiveOrDie View Post
    I was married for 8 months when I was 17
    her filing for divorce 1 day after I was sentenced to prison was probably the nicest thing a woman ever did for me
    What did you do?
    Strike her?

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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from Aug9th-LiveOrDie View Post
    I was married for 8 months when I was 17
    her filing for divorce 1 day after I was sentenced to prison was probably the nicest thing a woman ever did for me
    I never knew you were married, Aug9.

    Are you being sarcastic about the divorce? It seems kind of sad, to me.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  14. #14
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    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I never knew you were married, Aug9.

    Are you being sarcastic about the divorce? It seems kind of sad, to me.
    no, Im not being sarcastic
    about a year after I went to prison, she was sentenced to prison for stabbing her boyfriend to death

  15. #15
    Member Since
    Feb 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,352

    Re: Woman regrets divorcing husband

    Quote Quote from Aug9th-LiveOrDie View Post
    no, Im not being sarcastic
    about a year after I went to prison, she was sentenced to prison for stabbing her boyfriend to death
    That could have been YOU. Maybe prison actually saved you from that grisly fate.

    Just out of interest, how long was her sentence?
    The wicked flee when none pursueth. Proverbs 28:1

    'Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number - Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you - Ye are many - they are few.'

    Percy Bysshe Shelley

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "
    Thomas Jefferson

    The internet has been a lifeboat for men's opposition to the floodings of feminism.
    Celtic Druid


 

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