It is a scary world, Jools, and easy to find groups of crims at either end of various social dimensions.

I don't understand really what a real man is no more than I understand what a real woman is.

But I know one thing. Common sense men who are not blinded or afraid to see reality for what it is are the only heroes there are left in this world.

The crims are men AND women (look deeper at the vice industry, dominated by women) and the heroes are also men and women.

I would also say that 'commom sense' doesn't cut it. An educated and careful, moral sense maybe, but 'common', no.

Men's groups are the only way I can see to move forward.

Hmmmm. Maybe. Men have a role, but the problems are human (therefore including women) and social. For corrective progress to be made, a strong moral stance, including such critical aspects as intellectual honesty, needs to inform the men's movement.

Personally, I don't see any specific group as being the saviour of our social malaise and the broader the elements of that malaise - the human condition - the less likely that any movement can make a significant difference.

The men's movement, to my mind, needs to focus on specific - and few - goals. Feminism is a big enough target without having to take on every aspect of evil.

As for your friendly drug crim acquaintance, he needs an FMJ for Christmas.

Quote from Percy

The crims are men AND women (look deeper at the vice industry, dominated by women) and the heroes are also men and women.

You are right Percy.

As for your friendly drug crim acquaintance, he needs an FMJ for Christmas.

I don't know what a FMJ is but I would say myself that this guy is on target. The 30's are a popular time for men and women to change. 36 is the average age.

Anyhow. I do hear men on radio stations saying that they would get out and help if the funding was available to work with youth properly. (being male and female)

And I do know that others have tried to run groups their own way as males even with prisoners but also can't get the funding. Yet, if you do anger management on males to protect females you can get funding.

But for me for 2008, I have decided that I will just go along with groups that are doing things and write submissions, e-mails and make phone calls and hold meetings as time permits.

Feminism is too big for me at the moment. Yet I do remember you saying once that what ever part you do is a part of the bigger picture.

I think also that things are in good hands and it will continue to grow until it snowballs.

I don't know what a FMJ is

A Full Metal Jacket.

A 50c solution.

7 oz of lead, take-away.

A 'double tap', not on the shoulder.

Quote from Percy

A Full Metal Jacket.

A 50c solution.

7 oz of lead, take-away.

A 'double tap', not on the shoulder.

Ah, are we talking about concrete boots here and a swim in the deepest part of the river?

I do understand people thinking that way. If we just got rid of the bad in society things will be better.

Unfortunately society wants to imprison teens being mostly male children from 12 years of age as adults for crimes that are associated more with testosterone and lack of attention, discipline or similar.

I choose not to go down that path because we are already in chaos and it is not young people to blame. In fact it is not guys or girls faults for looking to the gangs for their needs to be met.

One of the things I have always wanted from my sons and all young people as a parent is to know what is going on in their lives. And if they are going out I want to know where they are. I do this because I remember the lying to parents many of the young did in my young days. (my mother was the same but she was illiterate and uneducated how to change teens) I may have hated her at 15 but I can't deny that she was the greatest role model as a woman and mother I could have had.

Anyhow, to get this information I had to accept the circumstance of knowing. To 'know' means that you can't judge. Because if you judge, you won't get the truth. But that doesn't mean you can't challenge the situation. It doesn't mean that you can't question people hoping they change their minds by throwing in a bit of wisdom so that they can think about things they hadn't thought of before.

I guess this has a down side in that even adult men and women will tell you things that you wish you didn't know. Because you earn trust by not judging.

My only boundary is that if you tell me who you killed then I will go to the police. So far no ones has told me names. And I am not one to say that you should hand yourself in and do the time for your conscience sake either.

I never crossed that line myself because I always knew that you have to live with decisions you make in a moment for the rest of your life and that you just don't know how you will think and feel and be in 10 years (less or more) down the track. Please remember that I know nothing of war.

What to do is a hard one to decide.

But for this not so friendly criminal, I was just a ship passing in the night. You might say he is friendly but it wasn't like that. He had just hit rock bottom over the death of his child. I know that becoming a parent changes many women and I know it affects males the same. Becoming a parent is a tool for the greatest growth any human can receive. IMO

Yep, the good old concrete wellie job. I use FMJ as most Americans don't know what wellies are (Galoshes) and the FMJ is quicker, both to type and to use.

I hear what you say about even hardened crims feeling personal pain. Sure they hurt and sure one can be sympathetic. But one can have heart-strings played like a harp.

Judgements: I cannot fathom what you are saying about judging, Jools. It is a mature human ability and a requirement for day to day living. Even Christ sought us to make judgments but with a caution to 'Judge not that ye may be judged'. He didn't say 'dont judge'. He meant make your judgement wisely so that you don't get judged for the consequences.

There seems to be a mantra about judging, a slogan, that stops people thinking. It is femispeak for 'dont find fault with me'. They try to make people feel guilty, blaming them for judging. They judge others themselves though, quick enough. And condemn them.

When people say to me 'Don't Judge', with that metaphorical wagging finger, I tell them to fuck off. When they say that they don't judge, expecting me to suspend my pretty basic humanity in concert I roll my eyes.

And relation to Truth and 'knowing'. I don't understand what you are saying. Can you make it clearer.

If I have an apple and a pear, I know which is which. If one is rotten, I know that too. I can see it. I make a judgement as to which I eat. The same goes with people. One gathers the information about them. They don't have to be wholly rotten to judge them as dangerous to know further and even to get them out of the barrel. We weight the good parts against the bad, - expecting no perfection from anyone and making some allowances - and being 'hurt' by losing a child is felt by the good and the bad. Even Hitler liked Wagner and Uncle Joe cuddled people one week and had them murdered the next. Someone who presides over and makes masses of money from making young prisoners the 'bitches' of tougher ones, is a shit. What do you usually do with shit? Gift wrap it?

I think we talked before about cutting the bad bits out. Some are rotten all through though and an FMJ in their ear is better for everyone otherwise affected.

Anyway, I am sure you mean something that I am just missing, so tell me what it is.

Quote from Percy

I hear what you say about even hardened crims feeling personal pain. Sure they hurt and sure one can be sympathetic. But one can have heart-strings played like a harp.

This is true. And yet this is optional. It is a hard one to discuss. If it wasn't for people allowing their heart strings to be played we wouldn't have the wonderful volunteers out there fighting for the innocent on death row and such.

And we wouldn't have people giving a hand up to those who truly and sincerely want to change and are prepared to do what ever it takes. Yet at the same time you have to keep these people at a distance. After all what is the chances of someone making it? 1 -3% I hear.

Judgements: I cannot fathom what you are saying about judging, Jools. It is a mature human ability and a requirement for day to day living. Even Christ sought us to make judgments but with a caution to 'Judge not that ye may be judged'. He didn't say 'dont judge'. He meant make your judgement wisely so that you don't get judged for the consequences.

There seems to be a mantra about judging, a slogan, that stops people thinking. It is femispeak for 'dont find fault with me'. They try to make people feel guilty, blaming them for judging. They judge others themselves though, quick enough. And condemn them.

I can see where you are coming from. But that was not my challenge. This is how it is for me.

I can say that I have never been a prostitute and I can look down on females that have been. But then the truth is that of course I have prostituted. To use sex for gain is prostitution.

I can say, "Hey, if I can do it anyone can do it". And yet once again I don't have the right to say that. Because not everyone has the capabilities that I have.

Or I can say, "I chose not to do that. So then, you could have made the same choice as me". But then I don't have the right to say that either. I don't live in that persons body, mind or soul. I don't really understand what it is like for someone else to be someone else.

I think the femispeak you talk of is understood by different people in different ways.

When people say to me 'Don't Judge', with that metaphorical wagging finger, I tell them to fuck off. When they say that they don't judge, expecting me to suspend my pretty basic humanity in concert I roll my eyes.

lol. It is not as if we are perfect so to not judge is something you have to work on.

And relation to Truth and 'knowing'. I don't understand what you are saying. Can you make it clearer.

It is simply about honesty. And having a relationship where the people you love will come and talk to you instead of them talking to strangers or someone else. Sometimes even your best friend can console your children and lead them astray.

If I have an apple and a pear, I know which is which. If one is rotten, I know that too. I can see it. I make a judgement as to which I eat. The same goes with people. One gathers the information about them. They don't have to be wholly rotten to judge them as dangerous to know further and even to get them out of the barrel. We weight the good parts against the bad, - expecting no perfection from anyone and making some allowances - and being 'hurt' by losing a child is felt by the good and the bad. Even Hitler liked Wagner and Uncle Joe cuddled people one week and had them murdered the next. Someone who presides over and makes masses of money from making young prisoners the 'bitches' of tougher ones, is a shit. What do you usually do with shit? Gift wrap it?

First off it is not just young ones that are stood over by gangsters in prisons. I met a guy who was 40ish who had been forced to bring drugs into the prison. He did this but when he was being searched coming back from day pass he told the wardens what was going on and explained his predicament.

Secondly, sure anyone who is forcing these people to do this for money is a scumbag. Drug dealers are scumbags. Drug users are scumbags. Gang members who beat up innocent people or recruit new members are scumbags.

People who drink drive are scumbags because they can kill eventually and anyhow they are risking lives that are not theirs to risk.

People who beat their kids up are scumbags. Men and women who beat up their partners are scumbags.

People who leave their children in the car to gamble are scumbags.

It makes sense then that the goody two shoes of society should be making laws for the rest of us. After all how many of society fall into the scumbag category. And how many fall into it for small incidences. Much like the 'No Smacking Law". How many will be branded with child abuse.

How many men are already branded as rapists for sex that was consensual.
Percy, now I am confused. You seem to be doing exactly the same as what the other side is doing. Let's gather all the information on people. All their past history and anything else we can find on them. Then we will judge them accordingly.

Isn't this not allowing for error? Or for circumstances?

One doesn't have to give out their address or phone number. There is no reason people would infect their own homes with rottenness.

Let's gather all the information on people. All their past history and anything else we can find on them. Then we will judge them accordingly.

A sound rubrik but we have to be realistic too. We can get analysis paralysis. We need to collect sufficient information, as we cannot know 'all', and be reasonably satisfied that the information shows a clear trend or has a character that weighs heavily on one side or the other. No-one is perfect and no-one is totally evil, but where a reasonably comprehensive set of information is available and shows a strong tendancy one way or the other, then it is prudent to make the judgment, if for no other reason than to focus attention.

Of course there may be more pressing reasons, like preservation of life. Where a delay in judgement is made due to overly conciliatory attention to details that are beyond sufficiency, we can easly fall into culpability ourselves.

I had a colleague advising the Police at a siege in Melbourne. A Turkish chap had highjacked a kindergarten and was demanding a plane and money. My friend was advising the negotiators and trying to gain all the info you speak of and find points of agreement with the chap. He was slowing the 'rush to judgement' of the police and trying to find 'good' points about him. Then the mad bastard poured petrol over a kiddie. The Chief Inspector turned to my friend and asked, "What do we do now", to which he replied, without hesitation, "shoot the bastard".

Making a judgment call which results in someone's death or saving someone's life, we may not have all the info, but sufficient can be quite small.

Yep there's a time for action, Percy. Completely agree.

Julie, judgements about others are sometimes very easy, if we listen to our 'intuition' (in your case, being a woman) or your guts (for a chap). Amounts to the same thing.

With these other people we need to ask ourselves a relatively simple question: 'would I leave my child in this person's care'?

How about someone else's child?

And remember, you are someone's child too.

Now, we could be wrong.

Nevertheless. Prudence demands it.

Or I can say, "I chose not to do that. So then, you could have made the same choice as me". But then I don't have the right to say that either. I don't live in that persons body, mind or soul. I don't really understand what it is like for someone else to be someone else.

Is it a matter of 'rights'? There are obligations to integrity to consider. You don't need to live in another's body, and as it is not possible, it is not a point to consider or even raise. Not understanding what it is like to be someone else or what it is 'like' for someone else, is irrelevant, for the same reason.

I think (I judge) that you are allowing irrelevancies prohibit you from making adult judgements which you may occasionally have an obligation to make.

Quote from Percy

Julie, judgements about others are sometimes very easy, if we listen to our 'intuition' (in your case, being a woman) or your guts (for a chap). Amounts to the same thing.

With these other people we need to ask ourselves a relatively simple question: 'would I leave my child in this person's care'?

How about someone else's child?

And remember, you are someone's child too.

Now, we could be wrong.

Nevertheless. Prudence demands it.

Is it a matter of 'rights'? There are obligations to integrity to consider. You don't need to live in another's body, and as it is not possible, it is not a point to consider or even raise. Not understanding what it is like to be someone else or what it is 'like' for someone else, is irrelevant, for the same reason.

I think (I judge) that you are allowing irrelevancies prohibit you from making adult judgements which you may occasionally have an obligation to make.

Yeap. You are right Percy. But I am not the only one who doesn't want to make these judgements. Even some feminists don't want to do this.

Your colleague had to make an important decision. But it was more than just important. I don't think many of us have considered that this goes on.

But let's look at this another way. (btw, you have made a valid argument that i need to think about) Cont...

When and if I decide our single parent group is to go mainstream, we will have to follow the yellow brick road.

We will have to notify child abuse services if we hear of anything that gives the possible impression that a child may be in danger.

We will have to notify the DV abuse team if there is a possibility a male or female can harm their partner or ex partner.

But then now a days it is not just this. Now a days communities are getting together and passing on information about clients they have so that other community groups that may work with one of your clients has the information on them also. And this goes around all groups. I guess we will be looking at databases soon.

If you don't understand what I am saying think of what happens in the medical field and the police field. When you go to hospital, the hospital has access to your medical records via a database. The same with the police. They also have a database they share throughout the country.

But not all of us are happy that we have to be a part of this and what qualifications do the community workers have to access this information.

This is something that is being worked now into NZ society but it is already up and going in America because they are the ones coming here to train NZ. I am sure this already happens in Canada but I am not sure about Australia.

The fact is that we are not far from being bar coded or chipped.

But people can't move with this and a lot of these so called social workers and even Psychologists and Psychiatrists are straight out of school.

As a matter of fact, Mental Health trained workers do not stick with clients to get to know them. They swap around which creates chaos for diagnosing clients. The same with child abuse services.

Each one of these staff come in with their own learning from social work and so forth from University and start branding clients. For instance. A young male will be asked about sex. He may say something as simple as "Girls wearing underwear around the streets is a tease". For this he is instantly branded a potential rapist. I have seen similar happen with my own eyes. And I am sure you can think of a whole lot of other scenarios.

It doesn't matter what you do to challenge these brandings for they cannot be removed. The best you can do is have a small note attached to the file to say someone challenged the finding.

But then the argument for doing all this is that we can help people better. We can stop DV, we can stop child abuse, we can stop rape, we can stop suicide blah, blah, blah.

..........

But on the simple side as we are getting slightly off track from where we started. We should judge the people we have around us.

You are who you hang around with after all.

I thought it a good idea to discuss this with my local dog catcher as he is pretty wise about all this and sensible.

The fact is that our communities have got a big project going on at the moment called, "Save the Communities".

The councils are involved and the police and major community groups such as Women's refuge and other groups that are working to stop all family violence.

And yes the dog catchers are also involved. Because it is figured that a mistreated dog will most likely have an owner who mistreats the children and partner.

He thinks chipping people is a good idea. Mind you the dogs are already chipped. And he put up a good argument showing the benefits.

Anyhow somewhere in all this is the idea to take hold of drink and drug issues in families, gang issues and other illegal activity. The idea is to educate people through programs they will have to attend if they are minor offenders but more will be put forward if things are worse.

It seems that some families are on the list of those who are most at risk and stuff like this has been going on for many years but things are being worked better so that things run smoother between departments and so that things don't slip through the cracks.

Is all this a bad idea or is it beneficial and better technology that is appreciated? Well probably both.

The only thing that is missing is laws to protect men from violence and from false accusations.

So I still think that what is need is men's groups.

Yea, but needs to remind you guys that those feminists would be stealthily fond of...Cuz as long as you created another organizational front and put much energy on it the men's anti-misandry efforts would be dissipated somehow along the effort and that's exactly those feminist evils would like to see....hehehehe...

They're negative forces, dark and insidious...

Quote from latenight

Yea, but needs to remind you guys that those feminists would be stealthily fond of...Cuz as long as you created another organizational front and put much energy on it the men's anti-misandry efforts would be dissipated somehow along the effort and that's exactly those feminist evils would like to see....hehehehe...

They're negative forces, dark and insidious...

There is wisdom in what you write. Things just don't add up.

All our countries are moving in the same direction with the same tools. I suppose it makes sense when you think us all being under the English discovery of countries but it shouldn't be that there is only one solution.

For instance, why not allow good men and good women to solve problems and save lives? All of this is decided at the top level and slowly trickles down to the ground. It is a definite agenda.

But what makes me so mad is the amount of lives that have and are being sacrificed for this agenda. There is just no way that a good agenda would be willing to treat all humans as disposable. There certainly is a lot of blood on these people's hands and a lot of destruction.

And I do agree that misandy should be important. It should not be swept under the carpet what men have had to pay for this.