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Thread: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

  1. #121
    nivek's Avatar
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    @ Incognito.


    I believe the “white feather” concept originated from fiction or was a misuse of the symbol used by pacifists, anyway, who's idea it was to use it as a vehicle to recruit men into the armed services isn't really the point, there were many different methods of recruitment, what is the point is that many women easily bought into it (not too much pressure needed to be applied ) more importantly the suffragettes readily bought into it, these saintly women, as popular history likes to paint them, who's stated goal was that women should have the same voting rights as men and be treated as men's equals were quite happy to dole out white feathers to young men who often had fewer privileges than the suffragettes themselves, certainly a great many of these men had no voting rights and many were conscientious objectors, pacifists, or were in reserved occupations or even had already been honourably discharged from the services due to injury. If these women were as concerned about rights as they claimed to be where was their concern for theses men's rights, beliefs or circumstances, why did they not object to this shaming campaign, Would their considerable energies have been better directed at campaigning for the inclusion of women in the services so that they could share the burden of defending their country more equally.


    This is why the white feather issue often comes up when women's suffrage is being discussed, because the suffragettes are always held up by feminists/women to be heroines fighting against the odds for equality between the sexes, the truth is that they were fighting for votes and rights for women only, ignoring the legions of men who had no such rights but were still expected to be willing to lay their life down in defence of the nation, this side of history isn't taught in our schools or on our “telescreens” where the lesson is “women were oppressed by men” end of.


    This article/OP looks to correct that and give the other side of the story .......... ya know, give a bit of balance.
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

  2. #122
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Nivek,

    Thanks for your insightful reply. I do think it's horrible that men were shamed into going to war. I think it's terrible all around, no matter where the shaming came from exactly (and I imagine there were many sources). There is one thing I don't understand.. what country (ies) are we talking about with regard to the white feather campaign? And wasn't this during the first world war? Men didn't have to the right to vote in that time frame? I thought that they did?

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  3. #123
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    This thread has always been about England's voting timeline / issues... not the world, not America, not some 3rd world country. It has stated from the very first post (the article itself) that it refers specifically to England. I think you're right about men being able to vote at that time too.
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  4. #124
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    England has an interesting history. In America, the white feather historically has held a different meaning altogether...but we aren't talking about the U.S. This is just one but an interesting view of the white feather campaign:

    The White Feather Campaign: A Struggle with Masculinity During World War I - Published by Student Pulse

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  5. #125
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from Incognito View Post
    Nivek,

    Thanks for your insightful reply. I do think it's horrible that men were shamed into going to war. I think it's terrible all around, no matter where the shaming came from exactly (and I imagine there were many sources). There is one thing I don't understand.. what country (ies) are we talking about with regard to the white feather campaign? And wasn't this during the first world war? Men didn't have to the right to vote in that time frame? I thought that they did?
    I speak from a UK perspective as does the OP :


    1918-1928

    As a reward for there sacrifices, had they lived to 1918 all men over the age of 21 were allowed to vote.
    A bit of personal perspective:


    i know very little of my paternal Grandfather as he was 65 when my Dad was born and died when my Dad was 11 years old, I know he fought on the Somme in the Yorks and Lancs regiment as i have his campaign medal and bayonet, i have done some basic maths based on my Dads date of birth and believe he was about 43 years old when he went to war, i am myself now 43 years old and i can tell you that the thought of that chills me to the bone, based on this and the fact that he was from neither Yorkshire or Lancashire i can only assume he was conscripted rather than a volunteer, i also know he did not own property and was a roofer by trade, so in all likelihood he did not have voting rights, i could be wrong about that as i seem to recall something about “heads of families” being able to vote but anyhow it kind of gives a good picture of the realities for the ordinary working man at that point in history.
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

  6. #126
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from nivek View Post
    I speak from a UK perspective as does the OP :



    A bit of personal perspective:


    i know very little of my paternal Grandfather as he was 65 when my Dad was born and died when my Dad was 11 years old, I know he fought on the Somme in the Yorks and Lancs regiment as i have his campaign medal and bayonet, i have done some basic maths based on my Dads date of birth and believe he was about 43 years old when he went to war, i am myself now 43 years old and i can tell you that the thought of that chills me to the bone, based on this and the fact that he was from neither Yorkshire or Lancashire i can only assume he was conscripted rather than a volunteer, i also know he did not own property and was a roofer by trade, so in all likelihood he did not have voting rights, i could be wrong about that as i seem to recall something about “heads of families” being able to vote but anyhow it kind of gives a good picture of the realities for the ordinary working man at that point in history.
    Thanks for sharing that. I'm 40 years old myself and cannot begin to imagine trudging off to war with guns and bayonets at such an age....at any age, but particularly in midlife. And being forced to go .....that would be a nightmare.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  7. #127
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from Incognito View Post
    And being forced to go .....that would be a nightmare.
    That's something you'll never have to contend with. Feminists would see this as misogyny, men see it as 'part of life'.

    I'm very glad that there is no 'draft' in current times, but the potential for it to return remains - hence why American MEN must sign up if they expect to live the life of an ordinary citizen that women take for granted at no costs.
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  8. #128
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from Marx View Post
    That's something you'll never have to contend with. Feminists would see this as misogyny, men see it as 'part of life'.

    I'm very glad that there is no 'draft' in current times, but the potential for it to return remains - hence why American MEN must sign up if they expect to live the life of an ordinary citizen that women take for granted at no costs.
    And that doesn't seem right or fair, does it? After all, women are as capable of combat as men, right? And if not combat (as some would say that women are not as capable as men in combat situations), then in some other forms of military duty? I agree that if "force" has to be involved (drafts, conscriptions)..women shouldn't be excluded. Of course, you can bet this topic is highly controversial for many reasons.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  9. #129
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    British army conscription from 1916, from wiki



    Conscription began during World War I when the British government passed the Military Service Act in 1916. The act specified that single men 18 to 41 years old were liable to be called up for military service unless they were widowed with children or ministers of a religion. There was a system of tribunals to adjudicate upon claims for exemption upon the grounds of performing civilian work of national importance, domestic hardship, health, and conscientious objection. The law went through several changes before the war ended. Married men ceased to be exempt in June 1916, and the age limit was eventually raised to 51 years old. Recognition of work of national importance also diminished, and in the last year of the war there was some support for the conscription of clergy.[citation needed] Conscription lasted until mid-1919.


    At the start of 1914 the British Army had a reported strength of 710,000 men including reserves, of which around 80,000 were regular troops ready for war. By the end of World War I almost 1 in 4 of the total male population of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland had joined, over five million men.
    1 in 4 ...... interesting statistic

    Even as early as June 1916 Britain was scraping the barrel for cannon fodder



    UK suffrage, also from wiki


    History of suffrage in the United Kingdom

    See also: History of British society
    See also: The Parliamentary Franchise in the United Kingdom 1885-1918
    Suffrage in the United Kingdom was slowly changed over the course of the 19th and 20th centuries to allow universal suffrage through the use of the Reform Acts and the Representation of the People Acts.

    as ever, wiki aint perfect but it seems to concur with what I've read elsewhere.
    Last edited by nivek; 4th-June-2010 at 08:08 PM.
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

  10. #130
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    I believe that all men got the vote after WW1,not as some reward to those whom fought,but because of the Russian revolution,that scared the pant's of all western goverment's,so as a precaution they gave them the vote.but at the same time they brought in the first gun laws,to control the carrying a firearms on their person.

  11. #131
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from Incognito View Post
    I just don't share your view that women always "choose the back seat." Many do, but from what I've observed, many do not. Times are changing, Marx. Today women are stepping up when it comes to the military, or bumps in the night, or daring rescues, when you compare this to the past.
    This is the kind of thing you should be polling your female friends and relatives about. Ask them if they think their boyfriend or husband should take a bullet for them, or support them if they don't want to work full-time, or if men should continue working the most dangerous jobs. Ask them if they prefer working for a man or a woman (you might be surprised at the answer), or if they have more faith in male airline pilots or firefighters.

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  12. #132
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from senach View Post
    I believe that all men got the vote after WW1,not as some reward to those whom fought,but because of the Russian revolution,that scared the pant's of all western goverment's,so as a precaution they gave them the vote.but at the same time they brought in the first gun laws,to control the carrying a firearms on their person.
    That certainly seems a very reasonable point
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

  13. #133
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Quote Quote from Incognito View Post
    England has an interesting history. In America, the white feather historically has held a different meaning altogether...but we aren't talking about the U.S. This is just one but an interesting view of the white feather campaign:

    The White Feather Campaign: A Struggle with Masculinity During World War I - Published by Student Pulse
    Some good points raised in that article, but several paragraphs seemed to be dedicated to making excuses for the white feather women, quite a lot of stuff like this:


    Furthermore the white feather allowed them to gain power over the men who usually ruled
    them.
    This is typical feminist thinking, men did not “rule women” the vast majority of men never ruled anything and probably never had any desire to, If feminists stopped peddling this myth a lot of women could avoid the huge chip on their shoulder that this gives them.


    Also quite a bit of this kind of stuff:


    What more does a young man want than the knowledge that women desire him and that he is
    able to obtain the object of his desire?
    This is just wrong, men do not and never have defined their masculinity by female approval, it plays a part but its certainly not all a man could want, the author is obviously the end result of an over feminised education system.


    What i did find interesting was the parallels that could be drawn with the feminist movement its self, how it's initial intentions appeared to be reasonably well intentioned but that its eventual over reach exposed it for the shameful monstrosity that it was.
    Last edited by nivek; 4th-June-2010 at 11:43 PM. Reason: cus im fick
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

  14. #134
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    I agree, Nivek, the article seems to be written with a feminist bent to it. Men did rule women though, in the sense that men were in positions of authority not only politically, but in their home domains as well. The word "rule" has such strong connotations to it that I can see why one would want to reject it straight away. It is possible that these women (of the feather campaign) got a taste of power over men, and went crazy with it.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  15. #135
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    Re: The Truth about Women getting the Vote

    Men did rule women though, in the sense that men were in positions of authority not only politically, but in their home domains as well
    No. SOME men were in positions of authrority and MOST men were not. The vast majority were not. Generalisations have to be from the majority, shirley?

    As for the home, that was traditionally the woman's domain. Even in 'working class' homes where men - who didn't have a political vote - resided, the wife was generally the matriarch and the chap 'handed over' his wages. I can remember my dad back in the fifties handing his wage packet over to my mum.

    This 'men ruled the home domain' bizzo is sheer nonesense.
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