Indeed percy. I would add that not only is it the absence of fathers, its the ineffectiveness of fathers when they are present.

And much of that ineffectiveness stems from the fact that a man cant be head of his family if he is lucky enough to have one in most instances.

Teenage girls who become pregnant don't necessarily lack values. I can speak for myself on this one, as I became a mother at the age of 18. And it was purposeful, and I was not married. I wasn't "valueless", I was yearning to have someone to love who would love me back, and I believed that having a baby would fill this void (yes it was a void) in my life. I felt empty and alone, and I wanted desperately to have a child to love.

And I wasn't fatherless. I had two dads, actually. My father was an active part of my life, and my stepfather was, as well.

Another thing to consider (for the girls who get pregnant unintentionally), is that yes, you're right, they do know what causes pregnancy, but like most teens, they truly don't think that anything "bad" will ever happen to them. Teens are notorious for taking risks...big risks. Drinking, partying, driving while intoxicated, pushing the limits. Some of this is normal...teens naturally do rebel a bit, some more so than others. But I think the underlying problem with the accidental pregnancies is that teens really think that it (pregnancy) won't happen to them. "Bad things", in their minds, only happen to other people. And if I remember correctly, there is only one (maybe two) days out of the month that a woman can actually conceive. That means there are many more days in a month that she cannot. So if sex (for a teen or anyone else) is sporadic, or a teen's menstrual cycle is sporadic (which is often the case with teenage girls), pregnancy is something that could take months (several) to happen, under conditions of unprotected sex. And the more time that passes, the more "sure" a teen is that she won't get pregnant. Teenage girls often don't understand fully the risks they take. They may understand the mechanics, but they are not experts on subject.

I wouldn't assume that all these girls lack values. Some may. But certainly not all. And I wouldn't say that fatherlessness is always the reason (when girls do lack values.)

Quote from TERA

Teenage girls who become pregnant don't necessarily lack values. I can speak for myself on this one, as I became a mother at the age of 18. And it was purposeful, and I was not married. I wasn't "valueless", I was yearning to have someone to love who would love me back, and I believed that having a baby would fill this void (yes it was a void) in my life. I felt empty and alone, and I wanted desperately to have a child to love.

And I wasn't fatherless. I had two dads, actually. My father was an active part of my life, and my stepfather was, as well.

Your father was not as big a part of your life as would have been ideal. You are effectively closer to falling into the fatherless category than you may wish to admit. A fathers hands are tied in such situations to a greater extent than many would realise. This subtle difference is often enough to "sway the balance" as it were. That void was there. I think much may be explained by the lack of something in your relationship with your father, good as you may think it was. Something more indeterminable and perhaps exaberbated by having a "step father" too..

Another thing to consider (for the girls who get pregnant unintentionally), is that yes, you're right, they do know what causes pregnancy, but like most teens, they truly don't think that anything "bad" will ever happen to them. Teens are notorious for taking risks...big risks. Drinking, partying, driving while intoxicated, pushing the limits. Some of this is normal...teens naturally do rebel a bit, some more so than others. But I think the underlying problem with the accidental pregnancies is that teens really think that it (pregnancy) won't happen to them. "Bad things", in their minds, only happen to other people. And if I remember correctly, there is only one (maybe two) days out of the month that a woman can actually conceive. That means there are many more days in a month that she cannot. So if sex (for a teen or anyone else) is sporadic, or a teen's menstrual cycle is sporadic (which is often the case with teenage girls), pregnancy is something that could take months (several) to happen, under conditions of unprotected sex. And the more time that passes, the more "sure" a teen is that she won't get pregnant. Teenage girls often don't understand fully the risks they take. They may understand the mechanics, but they are not experts on subject.

Lack of proper adult guidance and control has a lot to do with this. Standar practice is throwing contraception at kids. Has the opposite effect to what they want it to have many times! Once folk get into the sex habit, they dont normally take a break from it!!

I wouldn't assume that all these girls lack values. Some may. But certainly not all. And I wouldn't say that fatherlessness is always the reason (when girls do lack values.)

We all have values. Some have different values. fatherlessness may be perhaps even the biggest reason, but of course it aint ALL the reason!!

Sorry Tera you do lack values and are a perfect example of what happens. Even if a father is in the home, he could be one of these manginas and thus be like more like 2 lesbians in the home. Such girls long for a stronger male figure and thus go for a young male to have and to hold, and then hope to have a baby to have and to hold.

This is all immediate gratification. Fathers teach kids to focus on long term targets. Being tough means passing on pleasures to endure pain. Mothers try to avoid pain in all ways (including even their much beloved child birth is now too painful for many, due to it changing their bodies, so fear rules all).

Quote from Timocrat

Sorry Tera you do lack values and are a perfect example of what happens. Even if a father is in the home, he could be one of these manginas and thus be like more like 2 lesbians in the home. Such girls long for a stronger male figure and thus go for a young male to have and to hold, and then hope to have a baby to have and to hold.

This is all immediate gratification. Fathers teach kids to focus on long term targets. Being tough means passing on pleasures to endure pain. Mothers try to avoid pain in all ways (including even their much beloved child birth is now too painful for many, due to it changing their bodies, so fear rules all).

I know you mean well, Timocrat, but I don't agree that I lack (or lacked) values. You were much more correct when you said values are different for different people. And my father taught me a lot of the values I have to this day: honesty, integrity, trustworthiness, self-discipline, hard work, reciprocity, pride. My mother taught me values, as well. She taught me to be unprejudiced, to believe in my abilities, to strive for achievement/success, empathy/compassion, and communication.

I'm sure there are others that I've overlooked in those lists, but I just wanted to point out that I have never lacked values. Mine may be different than yours, but perhaps we have more in common than you might like to imagine?

The void in my life was probably due to the fact that I was sexually abused as a child, and depressed (clinically), had very low self-esteem, and a very strong will.

I think since you wanted children and had a man who you where I presume with during that time it was not really a bad thing was it?

I think its sad that teen parents are automatically in reciept of disdain.

That in itself can be enough to cause problems for them that need not exist otherwise!!

I do agree that fatherlessness has a huge impact on the psychological and emotional development of children.

Quote from FFFF

I think since you wanted children and had a man who you where I presume with during that time it was not really a bad thing was it?

I think its sad that teen parents are automatically in reciept of disdain.

That in itself can be enough to cause problems for them that need not exist otherwise!!

That's the really weird thing, FFFF....yes I was with the father, (I eventually married him and was with him for 15 years), but...before all of that, I had a plan in my mind...I wanted a baby, but didn't want to have the father (whoever that might be) in my life. I just wanted a child to raise by myself. It's a weird thing, I know...and I can't really explain it fully. That's why that story that I recently posted here (about the 17 high school girls who made a pact with each other to get pregnant and raise the babies on their own) struck a chord. They wanted babies, like I did, but didn't want relationships with the fathers.

In my case, when I got pregnant, I decided to stay with the father...like I said, I eventually married him. I decided that I wanted to be with him. The one thing I hadn't really counted on was being in love. Which of course changes everything. But originally, that wasn't what I had in mind.

I think I was just a really messed up kid...for whatever reasons...and I thought having a child would make everything "better." Just goes to show you how foolish (and naive) that teens can really be.

Quote from TERA

That's the really weird thing, FFFF....yes I was with the father, (I eventually married him and was with him for 15 years), but...before all of that, I had a plan in my mind...I wanted a baby, but didn't want to have the father (whoever that might be) in my life. I just wanted a child to raise by myself. It's a weird thing, I know...and I can't really explain it fully. That's why that story that I recently posted here (about the 17 high school girls who made a pact with each other to get pregnant and raise the babies on their own) struck a chord. They wanted babies, like I did, but didn't want relationships with the fathers.

In my case, when I got pregnant, I decided to stay with the father...like I said, I eventually married him. I decided that I wanted to be with him. But originally, that wasn't what I had in mind.

I think I was just a really messed up kid...for whatever reasons...and I thought having a child would make everything "better." Just goes to show you how foolish (and naive) that teens can really be.

You must have had some idea of who was going to be paying for the baby though?

I mean, did it not occur to you that kids cost money?

And that you would not be able to work and look after a baby?

Did you see other women doing similar things and therefore think it would all workd out ok?

I think perhaps that may be a lot to do with it.

Young women see other young women doing such and being sort of happy and want the same themselves.

Quote from FFFF

You must have had some idea of who was going to be paying for the baby though?

I mean, did it not occur to you that kids cost money?

And that you would not be able to work and look after a baby?

Did you see other women doing similar things and therefore think it would all workd out ok?

I think perhaps that may be a lot to do with it.

Young women see other young women doing such and being sort of happy and want the same themselves.

I had given no thought whatsoever as to how I was going to pay for the child...though I was working, but barely above minimum wage. And no, I really didn't see (or know of) anyone else who was doing or wanting what I wanted to do. I didn't tell anyone about it, either. It was my own secret, I kept to myself. I knew people would think it was crazy and try to talk me out of it. Why would an honor student with "everything going for her" want to throw all of that away to have a baby before even finishing high school?

I went back to school two years later (I was 20) then, and graduated. Probably the oldest person at my school. I hadn't counted on having to drop out my senior year...but that's another thing...I thought pregnancy would be a breeze. It wasn't. I was sick, morning, noon, and night for the entire length of it (all nine months). I had to quit working, too. And was hospitalized a few times for dehydration. I was on meds for the severe vomiting, but nothing helped. My pregnancy wasn't at all like what I was told to expect. And if I had been older (more wise), I would have been aware, I suppose, that things don't always go by the book.

Quote from TERA

I had given no thought whatsoever as to how I was going to pay for the child...though I was working, but barely above minimum wage. And no, I really didn't see (or know of) anyone else who was doing or wanting what I wanted to do. I didn't tell anyone about it, either. It was my own secret, I kept to myself. I knew people would think it was crazy and try to talk me out of it. Why would an honor student with "everything going for her" want to throw all of that away to have a baby before even finishing high school?

I went back to school two years later (I was 20) then, and graduated. Probably the oldest person at my school. I hadn't counted on having to drop out my senior year...but that's another thing...I thought pregnancy would be a breeze. It wasn't. I was sick, morning, noon, and night for the entire length of it (all nine months). I had to quit working, too. And was hospitalized a few times for dehydration. I was on meds for the severe vomiting, but nothing helped. My pregnancy wasn't at all like what I was told to expect. And if I had been older (more wise), I would have been aware, I suppose, that things don't always go by the book.

Strangely, I can understand how you probably thought. I wonder if you would have been put off the idea had you been told that if you had a child with no means of supporting it you would be put in a mental institution.

That, apparently, is the way it used to be back in the old days!!

And, frankly, I think that approach has a lot to reccomend it!!

Could well be just the deterrent needed!!

Tera said:

I had a plan in my mind...I wanted a baby, but didn't want to have the father (whoever that might be) in my life. I just wanted a child to raise by myself. It's a weird thing, I know...and I can't really explain it fully.

I mean no offense in this, Tera.

'Explaining' may be done truthfully or excusingly. It may be done well and fully, or poorly and mendaciously. We have to grope our way sometimes through dark corners where we'd rather not look.

So, have you opened the 'domination' box yet? You wanted to rule a father out and have complete control of a baby yourself, it seems. You already give yourself the 'out' of talking about 'raising' the child as though it were for the child's benefit. One could also try speaking as though one were taking full responsibility. The question is, is it? Or was it for your benefit. Your opportunity to 'be in charge' and in charge of someone who could not argue back?

Doing something for oneself is laudable, but perhaps selfishness over-rides. 'You' 'wanted' a baby. Fine enough, but... is that something that one person has a duty not to keep to themselves alone ? There is a father whether you want him around or not. You exclude him as if he didn't matter at all. The baby also has needs. The baby needs a father as well as a mother. But 'you wanted' seems to be the thing you spoke of.

I am sure that your motives were as mixed up, arbitrary and self-centred as any 18 year old's. At 18 the cradle marks are still etched into the bum. The brain isn't fully developed and the mind has yet to embark on its journey toward understanding.

Teen pregnancy might be considered 'normal' in an historical sense, but it was hardly an ideal. Teens making decisions about pregnancy is probably inevitable, but what our society lacks is clear guidance provided in the home. You clearly had a fractured guidance, even to arrive at the decisions you made. They were not at all unusual but that doesn't make them good (sound) decisions. Far too many young girls are in this position today. Far more and in greater proportion than at any time in modern history. And the horror lies in it being touted as 'good'.

Our current social arrangements seem to strongly accentuate the 'rights' of young women to make foolish, dangerous (individually and societally) and damaging decisions based almost wholly on what they 'want' irrespective of what others may be affected negatively. Your own life seems to bear that out.

Gallo argues that a father in the young woman's life - wholly in her life, permanently and reliably - is an essential for better decision making on her part. Not 'best' necessarily, but more often than not better, more considered, more grounded in reality and the lives of others, other than just herself. It doesn't take anything away from her but ignorance and selfishness and provides a rein on unconscious domination desires.

I didn't want a baby so I could "control it". I wanted a baby because I had a lot of love to give, and yes, this is selfish, but I figured my own child would love me back.

I had no desire to punish a man. I had no issues with men. If I were the dominating type, I would not have married someone who was so controlling of me, and stayed married to him as long as I did. I lived in a submissive lifestyle from the age of 18 to about 33. I was the one who was controlled. And it didn't end there. After my divorce, I had two more serious relationships, both with controlling men. It hasn't been until the last three years of my life that I broke this pattern.

If you want to psychoanalyze this more fully (or accurately), you'd probably have to know more about me, about my childhood. And it would be a novel or two before I could tell you all. But one factor that probably plays a part in all of this is that my parents were both alcoholics, and full time workers, and therefore they were never around much when I was growing up. I didn't have much supervision. In fact, I really didn't have any. And to top it all off, I was the oldest child, and from the age of nine until I moved out, I was the one who literally took care of my younger siblings. I grew up really fast, fast because of the sexual abuse, and fast because I was the one who had to be the adult when my parents were gone all the time.

Your theory is an interesting one, but in my situation, dominance, or a desire to dominate, was not my motive. I simply wanted to give love and receive it. I viewed children as being pure and the closest thing to God. I still do.