Good for you Annette. I'm sure your father would be proud of you

Good show. I bet if you hadn't stood up and said your piece they would have all, slowy, been won round to the mangina.

Well done Annette!

pjanus makes a good point - too many men shrug their shoulders while feminist policies are passed 'on the nod'.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if a man had said what you said?

Quote from Annette1313

I am SO annoyed that this [mangina] man ASSumes that the feminist view represents ALL WOMEN!!!

Good on yuh!

I am just wondering Annette why you think women should not have any authority in the church? Or than men and women should not sit together? And what do you mean "not read from the Torah?" You mean you can't read it aloud in church, or that you aren't allowed to read it at all? How is all this not discriminatory? If women are supposed to be quiet and subservient, then aren't you being a bit uppity expressing yourself like that?

Well done. The more that stand up and speak it out loud the better. I am pleased their was a vote. For other spoke up too.

Also, nice pic.

Quote from myce

I am just wondering Annette why you think women should not have any authority in the church? Or than men and women should not sit together? And what do you mean "not read from the Torah?" You mean you can't read it aloud in church, or that you aren't allowed to read it at all? How is all this not discriminatory? If women are supposed to be quiet and subservient, then aren't you being a bit uppity expressing yourself like that?

You'd have to have a really deep understanding of Jewish religious law to know the "why"'s of all of that. But I'll try to explain a little.

What churches do does not concern me, because I'm not a Christian. But it does bother me that liberals have infiltrated both churches and synagogues to try to destroy from within.

As for men and women sitting together, this is forbidden by Jewish Law. The genders are kept apart in many cases in traditional Judaism, for modesty reasons....this is also why religious Jewish women are not allowed to be in a room with the door closed, with a male they are not closely related to.

Women can read the Torah, but they cannot be called up to publicly read from it in the synagogue. In times past most women did not know Hebrew, so they could not be called up anyway. But in modern times the custom persists and has become a law.

In traditional Judaism, women are not OBLIGATED to pray three times a day at specified times (morning, noon and evening); we are not OBLIGATED to do many of the commandments that men are. The rabbis long ago made it OPTIONAL for women to fulfill all of the commandments men have, because women have the duty of raising children. The rabbis rightly recognized that women would be overburdened if they had to take care of children AND rush to synagogue three times a day (and daily when saying the prayers for the dead, when a loved one dies). I personally am grateful for that!

This does not mean women CANNOT do any of this, but they are not REQUIRED to. Some women have always CHOSEN to fulfill these commandments even though they do not have to, such as the daughters of Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchaki), a famous medieval French rabbinical scholar..his daughters were well-versed in Talmudic Hebrew, Aramaic and all the daily prayers.

In Judaism, men are REQUIRED to fulfill many commandments, while women are not, and there is another reason for this. Judaism regards men as being spiritually inferior, and women as being spiritually superior. The commandments are to STRENGTHEN the Jewish religious life of the men; women are regarded as NOT NEEDING this strengthening. The Kabbalah (Jewish mystical teaching) says that women are on a higher spiritual plane than men, and so do not NEED as much reinforcement.

In Judaism, men cannot pray publicly unless they first gather ten men for what is called a minyan. Jewish women who are unknowledgeable of the reasons for this often claim it is 'discrimination'. But the reason is related to the story of the 12 spies who were sent into the Land of Israel before the Israelites went in to posess it in Biblical times.

G-d told the Jewish people that the Land He was giving them was 'good'. The Jewish leaders decided to send 12 men into the Land to make sure (they lacked faith, iow.)

Ten of the men came back, saying the Land was barren, unfit for habitation. Two of the men said it was good.

The Israelite men chose to believe the bad report of the ten men, whereas the women chose to believe the good report of the two men.

As a PUNISHMENT, G-d required from henceforth, that all Jewish men, before they could pray, must gather ten men first, to atone for the sin of the ten male spies who went into the Land and, in disbelief of G-d's promise that the Land was good, chose to see it as bad.

And so the minyan requirement was a Divine punishment for a lack of faith!

Quote from Annette

What churches do does not concern me, because I'm not a Christian. But it does bother me that liberals have infiltrated both churches and synagogues to try to destroy from within.

Thanks for answering Annette; those are some interesting things I never knew about. First off I want to say that whatever people are doing in their own church is their own business as long as they aren't disobeying any major laws. I can understand your feeling that since these people do not attend your church regularly that they are "infiltrators" trying to interfere with your church. You were right to tell that guy off since he was a bit like an intruder.

However, I'm not sure about your claim that in general liberals are infiltrating the churches/ synagogues. While there may be some infiltrators, I think it's more likely that most are genuinely faithful but just have more liberal beliefs. Some of the stuff written in ancient holy texts seems, to the modern person, to be incomprehensible, bizarre, and even morally revolting. Some of the laws may seem irrelevant or impractical today. For one example, there is the law prohibiting wearing of mixed fabrics. It seems to make no sense, but back then I think it had a practical reason since mixed fabrics were harder to repair. Another one is the prohibition of eating unclean meats. Back then you could get very sick from eating or even touching these meats and cross contaminating. But with modern cooking and sanitation we can safely eat them. (However I did once read an article that said studies have proven kosher to be the superior method of butchering for both health and safety reasons and because it is more humane to the animal.) If some related laws were written today they might say, "Thou shalt thoroughly cook thy meat to 165.F and thou shalt wash thy hands; and thou shalt not manufacture thy electronics with difficult-to-recycle alloys." What I am saying is that some items of law may be more a matter of personal preference than absolute. Since people are bound to disagree that's why there are many different churches and secular state laws.

Quote from Annette1313

Judaism regards men as being spiritually inferior, and women as being spiritually superior.

And yet we look around with open eyes at the social experiment we call humankind, and all the evidence is to the contrary (even historically).

It seems like an ancient religious extrapolation of the self propagandizing, assimilating, and pervasive con women have successfully engaged in for many millennia

In modern day such hoodwinking takes all different manifestations from nursery rhymes, "girls are sugar and spice" social/political propaganda: women are more empathetic, women never lie about rape etc. Through to whole dedicated organizations (NOW) ideologies (feminism, all socialist variants) and governments enthusiastically conspiring to promote the great female fraud.

Then, just as today, people are just as blinkered in believing a concept of higher female virtuousness, even in a society of mass communication, and despite overwhelming reality. Think how much easier the female con was to play in ancient times, before mass communication.

Besides, in the present context, for many feminist orientated women - being void of a soul makes it rather difficult to be spiritual, let alone spiritually superior.

Quote from Celtic Druid

...being void of a soul makes it rather difficult to be spiritual, let alone spiritually superior.

LoL

I hold no opinion to the religious sides, but that is a fundamentally accurate observation, imho.

I knew many would have a problem with Judaism's belief that women tend to be spiritually more advanced than men. Keep in mind, however, that they do not mean all women, everywhere...when Jewish Law speaks, it speaks to religious Jews. And so, it really means religious Jewish women.

And I do have to say that, with very few exceptions, I have found religious (Orthodox) Jewish women to be pretty sane and level-headed. They're also extremely conservative morally and spiritually. The same is probably true of very conservative Muslim and Christian women.

I have to say that the kind of women most men have the serious problems with are the irreligious, secular, materialistic types. That's a whole 'nother can of worms from the kind of women I'm talking about! I don't think a true comparison can be made between deeply conservative, religious women who believe the man is the head of the home...and women who sleep around, drink, insult men, espouses feminism and act like golddiggers when they go out with men.

To be honest I say that's fair enough. If you look to which sex has behaved worse throughout history, it's got to be the men. Of course this is born of necessity, man has to be brutal and violent and savage to do his job properly, but that doesn't change the fact.

Remember guys, the claim that women have had a worse time throughout history is the most farcical lie ever told, the claim that women behaved better is just true.

Quote from TheOldOligarch

...the claim that women behaved better is just true.

Feminism changed all that, now didn't it?

Of course, but feminism was not around when these laws were made as you yourself pointed out.