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  1. #1
    Member Since
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    Prostitution in Sweden.....


    It is always interesting to hear prostitutes talking about there situation. A lot of what we think is going on (only trafficed girls exploited by their brutal pimps) is often nothing more then stereotypes at work....but read on:

    Lies about sexwork in Sweden

    Saturday the 26th May 2007
    By Isabella Lund
    Is it harmful to have sex with strangers?
    Is it harmful to make money?



    No, to sell your time, your company or sexual services is not in itself harmful. But it is damaging to sex workers to be subjected to oppressive conditions like discrimination and social stigma. Swedish prostitution law contributes to such oppression.


    Sex workers are being discriminated against, and thus prejudice and stereotypes are preserved. Even though the law supposedly aims at protecting sex workers, it is evident that the main purpose of the law is to protect society from a perceived social ill.

    It is legal to sell sexual services in Sweden, however it is illegal to buy. According to a ruling some time ago in an administrative court of appeal (kammarrätt), sex workers must pay taxes for their incomes from prostitution, although nobody knows how.



    Sex workers have duties but no rights?


    Sex workers in Sweden are at risk being evicted if they are found selling sexual services; they are also at risk losing their regular jobs, and losing custody of their children. What other groups in Sweden are denied their rights to work in cooperation with others or alone, in safety of their own premises? Would it be possible to treat other groups of workers, or religious or ethnic minorities like this, without them crying out about discrimination or human right violations?

    Every person saying that men 'buy our bodies’' is guilty of preserving inequality between the sexes. Even though we ourselves and our customers maintain otherwise, they continue to objectify us, and regard us a commodity.

    Furthermore, they say that such an attitude cannot be acceptable in a gender-equal society; although they do everything they can to preserve it themselves!


    How will we ever achieve equality if such prejudice and stereotypes are allowed to persist?

    Swedish politicians and feminists are proud of the state’'s prostitution policy. They insist that it has positive effects and are constantly bragging and telling lies about the situation in Sweden for sexworkers.
    In Sweden you can only find ONE politically accurate opinion about prostitution and it is expressed by most of the politicians, the police and social workers. What they say is founded on what they believe and not on facts or scientifically research and sadly this believing is exported as facts to other countries. Another opinion among politicians would be the same as a political suicide. People with another opinion are afraid to speak, because if they do they will be subjected to harassment and oppression or even loose their jobs.

    Yesterday I read an article at ANSA.it - - Minister targets prostitute clients:

    Interior Minister Giuliano Amato wants Italy to follow Sweden's lead in the battle against prostitution by making buying sex a crime. Advocates say that, by targeting demand rather than supply, this approach has slashed the street sex trade without hitting its main victims - the prostitutes themselves - since being adopted in Sweden in 1999.
    "In this way it is possible to pursue both the 'managers' and the clients and not just with fines for blocking the flow of traffic," Amato said.
    "Prostitution has been reduced in Sweden and almost all of its effects in terms of public security
    have been wiped out," he told Italian news weekly L'Espresso.


    I wonder who in Sweden has been telling lies this time? And has Amato asked the sexworkers in Sweden what we think about the laws in Sweden? Properly NOT, cause sexworkers in Sweden strongly discourage other countries from adopting similar legislation. Sexworkers in Sweden want to have the same human rights as the rest of society.


    We want a more sensible policy and legislation concerning the selling and buying of sexual services, a decriminalisation that means that the legislation prohibiting sex for pay between consenting adults is removed. As a result of a policy change, sexworkers could then start to be protected for real by the existing laws, for example rape, sexual abuse, trafficking.
    The law against procurement of sexual services (promotion or deriving profit from prostitution) and the law prohibiting the purchase of sexual services introduced in 1999 are the two main ways the Swedish state sees itself as ’'combating’' prostitution.

    As a summary, I can tell you that the law against purchasing sexual services have increased the risks and the violence against sexworkers and the law against procurement make it impossible for us to work safely.
    Let us look at some facts instead of listening to what some feminist and politicians in Sweden want to believe.


    [...]

    But he is not talking about prostitution;
    he is talking about trafficking for sexual purpose. And unfortunately people very often think that selling and buying sexual services is the same as sexual trafficking. But it's NOT.


    Prostitution is voluntary sexual service carried between consenting adults. If there is no agreement it is not about prostitution, then it's about enforced sex and sexual violence, for instance sexual slavery and victims of trafficking.

    Many politicians says that the Swedish law against purchasing sexual services is an effective weapon against trafficking. But there are no facts at all that can show that our laws about prostitution in Sweden have been effective against trafficking.


    And there is no logical argument that are suspense and strong to claim this opinion. In Sweden the cases of trafficking for sexual purpose is increasing for every year.

    Trafficking is modern among politicians these days and of course they want to show action against trafficking and they use this issue to gain votes and to make a political career. But to fight trafficking you need to inform people about how to discover trafficking, you need creative and focused resources and not laws that forces prostitution underground.

    A new report, from organisation for migration research IOM, exposing that within trafficking
    75 % is about slavery work in other areas than the sex industry.



    (Feck: HAHA knew it need that report though)


    Do the politicians in the future also want to outlaw all who employ help to agriculture because people are forced to do slavery work at farms?
    Or shall we become criminals if we buy diamonds in a jewelery store, diamonds that can have been found by child labour under slavery in Africa?
    Very often politicians also claim that all foreign sexworkers are victims of trafficking.



    In Denmark the police says that a maximum of one percent of the foreign sexworkers are victims of trafficking.

    And if you are a victim of trafficking the only help you can expect from the Danish or Swedish governments is to be locked up in a closed institution for refugees for some months BUT only if you help the police and expose yourself, for the threat against your family can be executed by criminal organisations.

    And when the police no longer need you, you are deported back to your home country directly in to the arms of criminal organisations.

    Countries which adopt the Swedish laws about prostitution can calculate on that robbery, ill treatment and rape of sexworkers will grow, that the policy that comes along with such laws will imply more discrimination towards sexworkers and that sexworkers will be to afraid to go to the police if they need help.

    Communication between sexworkers and authorities will collapse, collaboration will become aggravated and sexual trafficking will be hard to detect. We have already seen this happen in Sweden.
    Lies about sexwork in Sweden

    Sexworkes Critique of Swedish Prostitution policy

    [...]



    The law against procurement of sexual services (promotion or deriving profit from prostitution) and a recent law prohibiting the purchase of sexual services introduced in 1999 are the two main ways the Swedish state sees itself as "combating" prostitution. Swedish politicians and feminists are proud of the state's prostitution policy. They insist that it has positive effects. Sexworkers are of a different view. Most of the female Swedish sexworkers I have interviewed voice a strong critique of their legal and social situation. They feel discriminated against, endangered by the very laws that seek to protect them, and they feel under severe emotional stress as a result of the laws.

    The material in this article stems from my interviews, informal talks and correspondence with approximately 20 sexworkers since 1996, as well as published and broadcasted interviews with sexworkers in Swedish media. It is also based on interviews with people working with women selling sex to support a drug habit (most whom also are homeless).

    This article also contains a summary of reports conducted by Swedish authorities after the introduction of new legislation (the criminalization of clients).

    Selling sexual services is not work

    Sexwork is officially not considered work in Sweden. Rather, prostitution is seen as a social ill and a form of men's violence against women. Women who sell sex are considered victims who need protection by the state. Male or transgendered sexworkers are rarely spoken of. In the task of creating a better and more equal society, the Swedish state has determined that prostitution has to be abolished. This is an opinion rarely called into question.

    The law against procurement

    The law against procurement renders it illegal to work indoors, work with others, to profit from the sexual labour of others, and advertise. Some women interviewed express satisfaction with the effect this law has had on exploitative pimps, since there have been relatively few of them in Sweden the last two decades. Other sexworkers find this law discriminatory. They believe that they, like any other worker or businessperson, should have the right to a reasonable work environment, work collectively, advertise or open a business etc.

    Due to the law against procurement, sexworkers are forced to lie in order to rent premises, or alternatively they have to pay exorbitant rent. Either way, they constantly worry about being discovered. They also report often having to move (when discovered) and being treated badly by landlords and "rent pimps". Some women prefer to make contact with their customers on the street. Other sexworkers find this too humiliating.

    Most of the women I have spoken to wish to be able to work together with others. This is to ensure safety and to support each other. They find it unfair that they cannot do this and feel scared when they have to work alone.

    This law also makes it difficult for sexworkers to cohabit with a partner since it is illegal to receive any of a sexworker's income. It is hard for a sexworker to have a family at all since sexworkers are considered to be unfit parents and therefore can lose custody of their children if it emerges that they sell sex.

    The law against purchasing sexual services


    The new law which prohibits the act of buying sexual services is severely criticized by sexworkers. They find the law paradoxical, illogical and discriminatory. It further obstructs their work and exposes them to stress and danger.

    The women I have spoken to say that the reasoning behind the law does not makes sense to them. How can the politicians claim that only the clients are being punished and that they are being protected? The effect of the is law mostly negative for the sexworker. Some point out that even if a few men might get fined, the majority will continue buying sexual services as usual - and as usual it is women and sexworkers who will be the most adversely affected.

    As a result of the new legislation, the sexworkers say it is now harder for them to assess the clients. The clients are more stressed and scared and negotiation outdoors must be done in a more rapid manner. The likelihood of ending up with a dangerous client is thereby greater.

    Due to the law, sexworkers feel hunted by the police, social workers, media and sometimes even anti-prostitution activists on the streets. They find this unacceptable. One sexworker commented that no other vocational group would accept that the p countries from adopting similar legislation.

    Even if few of the sexworkers I have spoken to claim to know the details of the new legislation regarding prostitution in the Netherlands and Germany, they all speak positively of it. They wiolice "patrolled their workplace".

    Another consequence is that the sexworkers are now more apprehensive about seeking help from the police when they have had problems with an abusive customer. They do not want to be forced to report the client.

    Since the number of sexworkers on the streets has decreased and they are more scared, previous informal networks amongst the sexworkers have weakened. The result is that they are no longer able to warn each other about dangerous clients or give each other the same support.

    Women also report that another consequence of the law is lower prices on the streets since there are less customers and more competition. This means that women in more desperate need of money will engage in unsafe sex and sexual activity they usually would not perform. This in turn leads to poorer self-esteem and exposure to infection. Other women who have turned to the Internet to advertise claim a positive effect insofar as they have been able to raise their prices. But note that this only benefits some sexworkers. The more vulnerable sexworkers seem to be the ones most negatively affected by the law.

    Women working on the streets in some bigger cities claim that there is now a greater percentage of "perverted" customers and that the "nice and kind" customers have disappeared. A "perverted" customer is someone who demands more violent forms of sex, sex with faeces and urine and who is more prone to humiliate, degrade and violate the sexworker. He also more often refuses to use condoms. Since there are fewer customers on the streets many women who sell sex in order to finance a drug habit can no longer refuse these customers, as they were previously able to. These women say the "kind" customers have either turned to the Internet to find sexual services or have been arrested by the police. On the contrary, the "perverted" customers know what to do to not be arrested and fined - they just have to deny it since there is rarely hard evidence.

    Societal treatment

    Another often mentioned grievance is how sexworkers feel treated by the authorities and by society at large. All sexworkers I have spoken to mention the stigma attached to prostitution where the sexworker is seen as weak, dirty, mentally ill, addicted to drugs and alcohol and viewed as a victim. Along with the difficult legal situation, this makes the sexworkers afraid that it will be brought to public attention that they sell sex, so they do all they can to ensure their anonymity. This includes for some women lying to friends, family and neighbours.

    The sexworkers say that they feel incapacitated by the state and not respected. They maintain that their rights as citizens are violated. Several of them state that they are an important part of society, that they contribute to it, but that they are actively excluded from it. They also think sexworkers are denied the benefits of the welfare state - something that is granted all other Swedish citizens.

    Several sexworkers say that they feel used by politicians, feminists and the media. They think that sexworkers are only listened to and being paid attention to if they say the correct things, i.e. that they find prostitution appalling, that they are victims, that they have stopped selling sex and will never go back, and that they are grateful to the current prostitution policy and to the policy makers.

    Sexworkers feel overlooked in decision-making processes regarding juridical changes etc., something they find undemocratic. They question whether any other social group would have been so consistently excluded from any relevant policy making process

    The sexworkers report having had very little or no help from the social authorities and in any case, they would rather be left alone by them. Some believe women wishing to leave sexwork can in some instances get adequate help from the social authorities.

    Most of the sexworkers I have interviewed reject the idea that there is something intrinsically wrong with their profession, or that they should be subjected to therapy or retrained in order to work as something else. They also consider this to be a treatment that would not be foisted upon other professional groups. Sexworkers say that contrary to the official belief, they are not the victims of their customers, but victims of the state. This is not only because they are not listened to, or that the state puts them into dangerous situations and forces some of them to become affiliated with the criminal world, but also because the overall situation makes it impossible for them to be open about their work, speak out against injustice and to organize themselves.

    Health issues


    All the women I have spoken to report feelings of emotional stress due to the legal situation and how they are treated socially. They have to hide, lie and keep double identities. They fear harassment and ostracism for themselves, their children and their partners.

    The emotional stress also stems from a vulnerable and unclear financial situation. Since most women do not pay taxes they are scared of what will happen to them once they retire. Their pensions will be low and barely adequate to live on. When they fall ill, they still have to work or rely on what savings they may have, instead of relying on a right to workers compensation. The legal situation regarding taxation is unclear and varies from city to city. Some tax authorities will leave sexworkers alone, others will seek them out and tax them according to an arbitrary estimate. This worries sexworkers. Some of them have been subjected to this procedure with disastrous financial consequences. Others have only heard about it and worry it will happen to them.

    Sexworkers report an increase in their emotional stress subsequent to the introduction of the new law. The sexworkers say that they now feel more worried about being found out as well as more worried about future income. Several report that they now have more anxiety, sleeping problems, concentration problems as well as problems related to eating disorders, alcohol and drugs.

    The sexworkers I have interviewed report greater feelings of powerlessness and resignation than before the introduction of the new legislation. They feel as if there is "no point" in trying to change the system (or its direct effects on their lives) and that no one supports them or speaks for them.

    What they want

    Sexworkers express anger about Swedish politicians who, in their opinion, brag and tell lies about the effect of the new law vis-à-vis other countries. They wish that other countries might find out "the truth" about the effects of the law. They also strongly discourage othersh that prostitution in Sweden would be legalized (or at least decriminalized), that there would be unions and organizations for sexworkers, that the stigma around them would be lifted and that they would be granted the same rights and obligations as other women and citizens.

    Women selling sex to support a drug habit seem to be less likely to regard sexwork as a positive experience or as a work. But they are just as critical of the Swedish legislation and policy. They would like to have better access to a methadone or subutex program, currently something only a fixed number of people have.

    Official reports

    Criticisms similar to those made by my respondents were voiced in the three official reports made since the law against purchasing of sexual services was introduced. One year after the law was passed, the National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet), conducted a survey of the practice of the new law and what problems had been encountered. The National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen), also published a report one year after the law was introduced. Their task was to document existing knowledge of the spread of prostitution. The National Police Board (Rikspolisstyrelsen) published a report based on information from the first two years of practice of the new law. Their task was to evaluate the practice of the law and make suggestions about new methods in police work against prostitution.

    All of these reports find that street prostitution dropped immediately after the introduction of the law. They also suggest that recruitment was lower, although the National Council for Crime Prevention means that the exact number of prostitutes in for example Stockholm was hard to estimate because street prostitution had moved to other streets and took place in a larger area than before. All of the authorities say that there is no evidence that prostitution was lower overall. Instead hidden prostitution had probably increased.

    All of the reports address the problems emerging after the new law was introduced. The National Police Board writes that the sexworkers that are still in street prostitution have a tough time. This, they explain, is because customers are fewer, prices are lower and competition harder for the women. This leads to the sex workers selling sex without protection of condoms for a higher rate, and it leads to them having to accept more customers than before (since the prices are lower). The respondents in the National Board of Health and Welfare's study (of which none are sexworkers themselves) believe female sexworkers now experience more difficulties and are more exposed then before. The buyers are "worse" and more dangerous, and the women who cannot stop or move their business are dependent on these more dangerous men, since they cannot afford to turn them down as before. Even the buyers that were interviewed believe that the law mostly affected the already socially marginalised women. According to the National Police Board, the healthcare system has worries about declining health among sex workers and spreading sexually transmitted disease.

    The National Police Board has also found the law an obstacle to prosecuting profiteers who exploit the sexual labour of others. Earlier legal cases against such men could sometimes be supported by the testimonies of sex-buyers. But these men are no longer willing to assist, since they themselves are now guilty of committing a crime. The Police Board report also points out that sexworkers have fallen into a difficult, constructed, in-between position with regard to the new law. The female sex worker sells sex, but this is not a criminal act. However, because purchasing sexual services is now a crime, the sexworker can be made to appear as a witness in the trial process. She therefore has neither the rights of the accused or the victim. The Police Board report also discusses the fact that sexworkers are subject to an invasive searches and questioning, so that evidence against the clients might be obtained in flagranti.

    Official reports
    RPS (Rikspolisstyrelsen) 2001. Rapport. "Lag (1998:408) om förbund mot köp av sexuella tjänster. Metodutveckling avseende åtgärder mot prostitution." Av Nord, Anders och Rosenberg, Tomas. Polismyndigheten i Skåne. ALM 429-14044/99. 2001. POB -429-4616/99
    SoS (Socialstyrelsen) 2000. "Kännedom om prostitution 1998-1999." SoS rapport 2000:5.
    BRÅ (Brottsförebyggande Rådet) 2000. Brå rapport 2000:4. "Förbud mot köp av sexuella tjänster. Tillämpningen av lagen under första året." Brottsförebyggande rådet. Stockholm.
    Petra Östergren - Sexworkers Critique of Swedish Prostitution Policy

    EASTERN EUROPE – Research Shows Significant Figures on Human Trafficking

    16.02.2007
    An IOM research carried out partly to devise estimates on the numbers of trafficked people in five Eastern European countries claims that an estimated 225,000 people have fallen victims to the crime.


    An IOM research carried out partly to devise estimates on the numbers of trafficked people in five Eastern European countries claims that an estimated 225,000 people have fallen victims to the crime.



    The IOM research, carried out in Belarus, Bulgaria, Moldova, Romania and Ukraine through surveys among the general public in cooperation with the GfK, a leading research group for Eastern Europe, is an attempt to tackle one of the most difficult issues around human trafficking – how to gauge the extent of the crime. Figures on human trafficking within Europe are widely cited as an estimated 200,000 out of a global estimate of at least one million people.



    However, the mean estimate of just over 225,000 people in these five countries alone was reached after asking respondents questions that included whether they knew anyone in their immediate family who had ever been trafficked for various forms of exploitation using a methodology validated by the University of Nebraska in the USA.



    Ukraine, the country with the largest population out of the five, had the largest number of estimated victims – about 117,000 people. It, along with Moldova and Belarus also had the highest rates of trafficking prevalence. Estimated trafficking figures for the remaining countries are: Moldova (57,000), Romania (28,000), Belarus (14,000) and Bulgaria (9,500).



    [...]





    The report highlighted the need for stronger protection of labour migration as research showed high levels of trafficking for labour exploitation in sectors such as agriculture, construction and domestic servitude, rather than for sexual exploitation. This would be especially needed in Bulgaria and Belarus where the growth potential for labour migration were the highest of any of the five countries.


    However, the report stressed that labour migration was not the only factor to explain the prevalence of human trafficking as Ukraine and Belarus, two countries with low labour migration rates, had unexpectedly high human trafficking prevalence rates.


    Other factors include weakness of government legislation and enforcement institutions to fight corruption and criminality. Survey respondents in four of the five countries cited stricter laws and penalties for traffickers as the most important step to be taken in fighting human trafficking. “The full scale of trafficking through, from and within Eastern Europe has remained relatively unknown, because most victims are unwilling, scared or unable to report to the authorities what has happened to them. The statistical research will enable policy makers and implementing organizations to determine whether we are all on the right track in how we are fighting human trafficking,” said IOM’s Counter-Trafficking Coordinator for Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine, Fred Larsson.
    http://iom.ramdisk.net/iom/artikel.p...tory_back=true
    Last edited by Feckless; 19th-November-2008 at 02:11 PM.
    The men's and fathers' movement needs to make sure it never sees females as the enemy,
    but only misandry--whether from females or from males.
    If not, we'll become like the bigoted feminists that this movement was formed to oppose.
    Glenn Sacks
    Disclaimer:
    http://antimisandry.com/109272-post69.html

    Blog:
    http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/

    Fecks Warcraft File:

    http://antimisandry.com/chit-chat-ma...ile-16039.html

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2

    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Prostitutes and prostitution are still essentially legal. The existence of male-punishment mechanisms within Swedish prostitution law does not count as anti-prostitute, to me anyway.

    Sexworkes Critique of Swedish Prostitution policy

    Societal treatment

    Another often mentioned grievance is how sexworkers feel treated by the authorities and by society at large.
    Actually an important point. Feminists have always sought to legitimise and dignify prostitutes, as feminism being gynocentric has to deal with the fact that whoredom is the natural state of woman in a positive way.

    Compare feminists' treatment of motherhood (particularly stay-at-home mothers) and prostitutes! Through the cross-section of feminist discourse one is seen a pariah, utterly loathed; the other is seen as independent, deserving of more respect.
    Last edited by Male-Rights-Network; 19th-November-2008 at 02:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Member Since
    Jun 2008
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from Male-Rights-Network View Post
    Prostitutes and prostitution are still essentially legal. The existence of male-punishment mechanisms within Swedish prostitution law does not count as anti-prostitute, to me anyway.
    Of course not. They are even encouraging men to go to prostitutes by removing them from the streets. In effect punishing the men for going to prostitutes and criminalizing them has led to even more men wanting to go to prostitutes (you know you want to do what is forbidden). The gouvernment says they want to abolish prostitution. But that is just hiding their true motives. By making work harder as it was before for prostitutes they are actually encouraging sexual liberation. Oh those matriarchs almost tricked me.....

    I searched a bit arround and found some connections between feminists and "sex-workers". You mentionend Carol leigh before....she is one of the tricky feminists that was able to hide their feminist tag:

    Carol Leigh, aka The Scarlot Harlot, is an artist, author, film maker, and prostitutes' rights activist. She coined the term "Sex worker" in a conference in 1978. She currently chairs the Sex Worker Film and Arts festival and is the director of BAYSWAN, the Bay Area Sex Worker Advocacy Network. She lives in San Francisco.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Leigh

    The COYOTE guys couldn´t trick so easily as the founding prostitute was a feminist...HA caught in the act.

    But it gets more obvious. While searching the International Union of Sexworkers side you will find tons of articles (2) that link to feminism. The praise these whores have for feminists is astonishing:

    When feminism only sees prostitution as violence of ‘bad men’ against ‘innocent women’ it erases the complex experiences of many workers, including those who use the resources of sex to mediate a variety of financial problems and/or migrate, and find themselves in exploitative and abusive conditions. It silences the workers who consciously make the decision to work in the sex industry but who are at some point subject to abuse. The abuses we undergo, and our stigmatisation, are considered to be natural consequences of our willingness to work as prostitutes, meaning it is our own fault. This reinforces the classic dichotomy between innocent and guilty women, thus fostering the idea that ‘innocent’ women deserve of protection and ‘guilty’ ones can be abused with impunity.
    When feminism denies sex work as labour it forces us to spend our time defending the existence of our work instead of struggling for its transformation. It forces us to deny any of the pleasures of our work, or to invent them.
    When feminism contributes to and promotes the moral panic about ‘trafficking’ it makes itself complicit in the increase of states’ border control, restrictions to migration, worsening migrants’ dependency, police raids in working places and deportations. This discourse in effect becomes the legitimisation of state violence and of the creation of hierarchies of citizenship.
    http://www.iusw.org/node/15

    It's International Sex Workers Rights Day, Where Are All the Feminists?...
    http://www.alternet.org/blogs/reprod...the_feminists/

    They will never fool me again....

    Quote Quote from Male-Rights-Network View Post
    Actually an important point. Feminists have always sought to legitimise and dignify prostitutes, as feminism being gynocentric has to deal with the fact that whoredom is the natural state of woman in a positive way.

    Compare feminists' treatment of motherhood (particularly stay-at-home mothers) and prostitutes! Through the cross-section of feminist discourse one is seen a pariah, utterly loathed; the other is seen as independent, deserving of more respect.
    Hm would be good to have sources to argue with this. Do you have any at hand?
    The men's and fathers' movement needs to make sure it never sees females as the enemy,
    but only misandry--whether from females or from males.
    If not, we'll become like the bigoted feminists that this movement was formed to oppose.
    Glenn Sacks
    Disclaimer:
    http://antimisandry.com/109272-post69.html

    Blog:
    http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/

    Fecks Warcraft File:

    http://antimisandry.com/chit-chat-ma...ile-16039.html

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4

    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    While searching the International Union of Sexworkers side you will find tons of articles (2) that link to feminism. The praise these whores have for feminists is astonishing:
    Normally they do have a lot of praise for feminists, yes. They are indebted to them for their livelihood, improving their public image, and smashing the sexual-moral code to make it more accepting of prostitution.

    You mentionend Carol leigh before....she is one of the tricky feminists that was able to hide their feminist tag:
    So her Wikipedia article doesn't mention her feminist affiliation, what's your point? Wikipedia is not the sole arbitror of truth. Excerpts from her book The Scarlot Harlot and history of her personal life prove that she is indeed a feminist.

    It's International Sex Workers Rights Day, Where Are All the Feminists?...
    Oh, they'll be there alright. Prostitution liberalisation is as fundamental to feminism as making on-demand abortion legal. Telling comments on that article:

    This is the very first International Sex Workers Rights Day ever, it was just made up, and you're complaining about why every feminist on the internet isn't both aware of this newly declared event and writing up a storm defending prostitution as feminist? [...]

    Is there a dialogue within feminist and labor circles to empower these workers? I'd love to be a part of that.

    As 'the oldest profession in the world' it's shocking to me that there isn't more women, queers and trannies taking over the industry as the owners of companies where they can define the industry for themselves.

    Bringing sex work out in the light as a feminist, anti-racist, labor issue leads to the humanization of sex workers; human rights are workers' rights.
    Actually an important point. Feminists have always sought to legitimise and dignify prostitutes, as feminism being gynocentric has to deal with the fact that whoredom is the natural state of woman in a positive way.

    Compare feminists' treatment of motherhood (particularly stay-at-home mothers) and prostitutes! Through the cross-section of feminist discourse one is seen a pariah, utterly loathed; the other is seen as independent, deserving of more respect.
    Hm would be good to have sources to argue with this. Do you have any at hand?
    Almost any feminist text classic or contemporary that I have read. From 1960s authors to female newspaper columnists today.

    When feminism contributes to and promotes the moral panic about ‘trafficking’ it makes itself complicit in the increase of states’ border control, restrictions to migration, worsening migrants’ dependency, police raids in working places and deportations. This discourse in effect becomes the legitimisation of state violence and of the creation of hierarchies of citizenship.
    Feminists kick up panic about "trafficking" to demonise men, not to admonish prostitutes. There's a major difference.
    Last edited by Male-Rights-Network; 19th-November-2008 at 06:22 PM.

  5. #5
    Member Since
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    11,312
    My Blog Entries:
    1

    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Why anyone would want to have sex with a prostitute is beyond me.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  6. #6

    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Why anyone would want to have sex with a prostitute is beyond me.
    Here's a clue: sexual-biological-evolutionary urge.

  7. #7
    Member Since
    Apr 2008
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    11,312
    My Blog Entries:
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from Male-Rights-Network View Post
    Here's a clue: sexual-biological-evolutionary urge.
    I understand sexual urges (women have them, too, contrary to popular opinion in these parts...) What I'm saying is, I don't understand the appeal of a prostitute vs. a person who doesn't have indiscriminate sex for a living. It's very unappealing to think of having sex with someone who's had so many partners...exposures to all sorts of diseases...etc.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  8. #8
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I understand sexual urges (women have them, too, contrary to popular opinion in these parts...) What I'm saying is, I don't understand the appeal of a prostitute vs. a person who doesn't have indiscriminate sex for a living.
    You think that most punters are making that choice? It's not as easy for us men to get sex, as it is women; bloody impossible, nearly, for some of us, lol.

  9. #9

    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    I understand sexual urges (women have them, too, contrary to popular opinion in these parts...) What I'm saying is, I don't understand the appeal of a prostitute vs. a person who doesn't have indiscriminate sex for a living. It's very unappealing to think of having sex with someone who's had so many partners...exposures to all sorts of diseases...etc.
    In the Matriarchy the risks are basically the same for non-formal-prostitute "normal" females as far as exposure to disease goes. There are points against the usage of prostitutes, however I don't this lesser disease exposure is one of them.

    Don't know about others on this forum, but I would in no way be one to deny that women have sexual urges. I am a realist who recognises that women are indeed more sexual than men.
    Last edited by Male-Rights-Network; 19th-November-2008 at 09:44 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    Why anyone would want to have sex with a prostitute is beyond me.
    Because they are better than the other type of woman who is likely to be offerring sex!!

  11. #11
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I understand sexual urges (women have them, too, contrary to popular opinion in these parts...) What I'm saying is, I don't understand the appeal of a prostitute vs. a person who doesn't have indiscriminate sex for a living. It's very unappealing to think of having sex with someone who's had so many partners...exposures to all sorts of diseases...etc.
    And what is the difference between a professional who knows the risks and deals with them as opposed to the average slag who has no idea what she is doing or what she is carrying?

  12. #12
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from haahoo View Post
    And what is the difference between a professional who knows the risks and deals with them as opposed to the average slag who has no idea what she is doing or what she is carrying?
    Do you honestly think hookers give a damn about you or your health? Take a walk down the SeaTac strip sometime ...most hookers are not high class call girls, they are street walkers, supporting drug habits, that will do just about anything for their next fix. Many are carrying AIDS, HIV, hepatitis, herpes, and a MRSA, and other such diseases....

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  13. #13
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    Do you honestly think hookers give a damn about you or your health? Take a walk down the SeaTac strip sometime ...most hookers are not high class call girls, they are street walkers, supporting drug habits, that will do just about anything for their next fix. Many are carrying AIDS, HIV, hepatitis, herpes, and a MRSA, and other such diseases....
    I agree 100% with that tera.

    They also frequent the clinics and get themselves sorted on a regular basis, practice safe sex almost always, dont kiss, dont require a "tongueing down there" and one can spend 10 minutes dumping the muck in them before wiping oneself down and going back to the wife..

    Unlike the stupid slags you see falling over in the streets coming out of the bars, who are in reality as likely to be infested with std's, who want to do all manner of bodily fluid exchanges, dont know what a condom is for and generally are clueless and waste time.. They also want a 2 hour session that vasty increases the risks.. (and is approximately 1 hour and 59 minutes longer than the average punter would like to spend in what looks like a dog!!)

    They are also just as likely (if not more,) to have some saddo druggy boyfriend come in and bash you on the head for knobbing his piece of shit..

    What seperates whores from most of the common bar skanks a punter will encounter in his sex prowling, is simply their own recognition of what they are..

    Sexual cesspits.. Spunksponges and sperm toilets!!

  14. #14
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    I doubt they are going to clinics on a regular basis...if they had the means to do that, they probably wouldn't be living on the streets (which many of them are.) And safe sex? O.k...I doubt that, too...but even if it's true, the faithful use of a condom is no guarantee you won't get a disease. Just sayin'.

    "Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."

    "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace."
    -Albert Schweitzer

  15. #15
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    Re: Prostitution in Sweden.....

    Quote Quote from TERA View Post
    I doubt they are going to clinics on a regular basis...if they had the means to do that, they probably wouldn't be living on the streets (which many of them are.) And safe sex? O.k...I doubt that, too...but even if it's true, the faithful use of a condom is no guarantee you won't get a disease. Just sayin'.
    In that case you show how little you know..

    I have plonked hundreds of them, everyone the lowest and dirtiest of the genre, fresh off the streets!! (i like it that way!!) and they still had more respect and better hygiene standards than the foul skanks one could collect from the bar-hopping..

    Its not good for business to behave like the common barslut..!

    Prostitutes (even the lowest of the trade) usually behave in a more ladylike manner than the "goodtime girl" morons..


 

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