I don't buy it. Bitter people enjoy being bitter.

I've just got to hear what Percy has to say about this...!

My thoughts: of course people will feel bitter if they've worked really hard at something and things don't go the way they were expected to. That's normal, right? We've all been there. We've all felt bitter at one time or another. And I suppose the degree of bitterness could possibly be measured (so to speak) on a continuum, from "damn my boss" to "I'm gonna go postal"- but a syndrome? What do you think? Is it plausible, or just another diagnosis for psychiatrists and pharmaceutical companies to profit from?

Stay tuned....the new and "improved" DSM-V diagnostic manual will be coming soon to a doctor's office near you.

Quote from KellyMac

I don't buy it. Bitter people enjoy being bitter.

For the life of me I can't fathom how being bitter could be fun.

Quote from TERA

For the life of me I can't fathom how being bitter could be fun.

Pathetic isn't it!!

Quote from Zuberi

Pathetic isn't it!!

I wonder how long one would be (under the diagnostic criteria) "allowed" to be bitter without calling it a syndrome? I wonder if part of the diagnostic criteria would have to do with how much the bitterness impairs one's ability to function in their daily lives, or how impairs thinking/cognitive process or interferes with interpersonal stuff (relationships)? I guess I always thought of bitterness as a pretty much normal response to certain kinds of events. I suppose it isn't "normal" though if it goes on and on and impacts someone's quality of life. And I kind of thought that such prolonged, life-impacting bitterness might be a symptom of a disorder (perhaps) rather than a condition (or syndrome) all by itself.

I think it would be more a matter of degree of bitterness than length of time. If it gets to a point where it's adversely effecting your life, then it's a problem.

As for enjoying it, have you ever known anyone who seemed to wallow in their depression? I know when I was really near the bottom, it was just easier to stay in it than to make the effort to get better. In some ways it was comforting, like an old friend.

Quote from KellyMac

I think it would be more a matter of degree of bitterness than length of time. If it gets to a point where it's adversely effecting your life, then it's a problem.

As for enjoying it, have you ever known anyone who seemed to wallow in their depression? I know when I was really near the bottom, it was just easier to stay in it than to make the effort to get better. In some ways it was comforting, like an old friend.

I guess it does have to do with degree, like you said. I'm no stranger to depression myself, but I've never found it comforting. When I'm depressed, nothing is comforting.

I think I understand what you're saying, though. Depressed people don't want to do anything because everything feels like a monumental task and absolutely nothing really feels good- at least that's how I usually perceive it. Just getting out of bed takes a tremendous effort. I'm glad I haven't had deal with depression for quite some time now. But I sure do remember what it was like! I also remember that it was the stuff I dreaded doing the most (like getting up, moving, socializing)- that actually made a difference in how I felt. Made me feel better! (Ironic, isn't it?)

I suppose someone who's been bitter for a long, long time might not take steps to rid themselves of the bitterness if they feared it would mean doing something new...something unconventional...like forgiving, or accepting, or moving on?

Sounds to me like a bunch of psychiatrists inventing another opportunity to make pots of money for themselves. And what's the betting that as soon as this new idea is adopted, somebody not unconnected to the world of psychiatry will come up with an expensive drug designed to treat the condition?

Ach Zo. Herr Doktor Linden has made ze new syndrome. Ist Goot, Yah.

Vell, Dr Percy ist in mein conzultink room unt is ready for ze poor bitter clients. Zend zem in, bitter.

Und zere ist ze madder of ze fee !

Fur ze Psychobabblers it ist just more bread unt bitter

This isn't a scam. It's a realization. Take the thread I put up about Mobbing. One chapter of the book cited is about how mobbing continues after the target has been fired or forced to leave. You would figure that leaving that job would free you up to accept, forgive and move on ... to get over it. Then you discover, it doesn't. It's a double-bind.

I watched my local cable TV

it featured Las Vegas or better lost beggers

families and all and sundry folk evicted from their homes on default of their instalments living in tents pitched on the footpaths

I guess they would hold a measure of bitternes on that footpath sitting in their tents and contemplating their hopes of home ownership gone forever

people evicted from their homes en masse is a definitive symptom of a national economic depression - future prospects gone for a generation or two

Does the passage of time alleviate bitterness? Or do other (perhaps related or unrelated) favorable events help diminish it? Does it take internal changes, external forces, conscious decisions or do unconscious factors play a role in how quickly one is able to let go of something that causes bitterness? Can bitterness be managed or does it just have to run its course?

What are the short term and long term effects of pro-longed bitterness? How does it serve human beings? Is it ever essential in some way for our survival? I suppose one could say it is a constructive thing if it exists long enough to help shift our direction toward something positive. Anger can be like that.

Quote from TERA

Does the passage of time alleviate bitterness? Or do other (perhaps related or unrelated) favorable events help diminish it? Does it take internal changes, external forces, conscious decisions or do unconscious factors play a role in how quickly one is able to let go of something that causes bitterness? Can bitterness be managed or does it just have to run its course?

What are the short term and long term effects of pro-longed bitterness? How does it serve human beings? Is it ever essential in some way for our survival? I suppose one could say it is a constructive thing if it exists long enough to help shift our direction toward something positive. Anger can be like that.

I am wondering if "debilitating bitterness" is basically the same thing as chronic anger. I can certainly understand what might be called "chronic anger" but the idea of being "bitter" is more fuzzy to me. Maybe saying someone is "bitter" is just a pejorative term for someone who is angry. If you say someone is bitter, you are implying their anger is pathological or unnecessary or part of their nasty temperament. If you say someone is "angry" then you are not casting aspersions upon why they are angry, you are taking the angry emotion they are feeling more at face value, simply acknowledging or facing the fact that indeed, they are angry.

So, I think I'll use the term "chronic anger" rather than talking about "bitterness".

First of all, I do indeed understand how chronic anger can be "fun" or feel good to the person who is "wallowing" in their anger. Being angry can make you feel powerful, reaffirm the idea that an injustice has been done to you, and therefore reaffirm your humanity or worth as a human being in your eyes. Anger can indeed "feel good" and it is, in many cases, I think, a legitimate and even healthy emotion.

This is much injustice in the world, and people do indeed do bad things to other people. Punishment for bad behavior I think is necessary for good behavior to be encouraged, for the good behavior to rise above the bad.

The purpose for becoming angry is to motivate you to punish the person, or the force, that did bad to you, or perhaps that does bad to another. The reason why anger is so prevalant and powerful an emotion is because the need to punish people who do wrong is so great and so fundamental a part of life.

Anger is however an emotion that can be manipulated. Someone with an inflated sense of ego can go around feeling angry at anyone who doesn't do what they tell them to do or who doesn't give them what they want. If someone feels superior to or better than someone else then the person with a "superiority complex" might get angry at anyone who doesn't treat them in the superior way they feel entitled to be treated because after all, they are better than everybody else, so they deserve to be treated as superior, and anyone who fails to bow down to their demands is "insulting" them, is giving them less than they deserve, is being bad to them, by not giving them what they want, and is therefore deserving of their wrath, and indeed is deserving of being punished!

So, anger can be generated because someone who has been victimized has a just and moral desire to punish the person who did wrong to them. Anger can also be an expression of someone's arrogance and be used as a device to legitimize an arrogant person's predatory and selfish behavior towards others.

Anger is in effect a form of power for the person who is feeling angry. Maybe the person has been victimized and becoming angry is a legitimate way for the person who has been victimized to get their power back, and maybe the person seeks to victimize others and therefore develops an inflated sense of themselves justifying their anger against anyone who doesn't give them what they want.

Anger is a force for good or for ill, depending on how the person who is angry is using the emotion of anger in their lives.

The fundamental reason why people get angry, to motivate them to punish those who did them wrong, I think is a good thing, because punishing people who do wrong is a good thing. Still, it should be kept in mind, just because someone is angry doesn't mean the person who is angry is in the right.

So, that is my overview on the subject of anger.

Now, to respond to the questions that Tera asked.

Does the passage of time alleviate bitterness? Or do other (perhaps related or unrelated) favorable events help diminish it? Does it take internal changes, external forces, conscious decisions or do unconscious factors play a role in how quickly one is able to let go of something that causes bitterness? Can bitterness be managed or does it just have to run its course?

First of all, I am going to make the assumption that "bitterness" and anger are the same thing. I think "bitterness" is simply a pejorative term for anger and so it is better to simply talk about "anger" when trying to understand this subject.

So Tera, you ask a lot of questions here. They do say that "time heals all wounds". I assume the important issue you want to deal with here is how to alleviate or solve the problem of chronic or pathological anger. I in general believe that emotional trauma from past events is "stored" by how a bad event or series of events alters the way one views the world or alters the perceptions they have or assumptions they make. I would say this goes for anxiety, depression, and anger, for all emotional maladies that human beings suffer from.

The initial trauma is temporary and fades quickly; the emotional "damage" that lasts for years is the result of how the person's view of the world and of themselves is changed by the event or events.

In other words, trauma is "stored" by the beliefs that someone holds. It is the belief system that is altered by a bad event that leads to the bad event having negative consequences for years into the future. When bad things happen to an individual they tend to develop faulty or unreasonable beliefs and assumptions and biases, and it is these faulty beliefs that lead the person to in effect create trouble for themselves on an ongoing basis for a long time into the future.

So, to try to address the questions you asked, about how to resolve problems of chronic anger:

Does the passage of time alleviate bitterness? Or do other (perhaps related or unrelated) favorable events help diminish it?

The passage of time can help to relieve anger problems because the passage of time gives someone an opportunity to learn how to change the way they think. Other favorable events that one may experience in their life can indeed help to diminish anger because when someone experiences a favorable event that can alter the assumptions they make about the world, about the nature of life, and lead to a belief system that is more healthy.

Time helps to alleviate anger as it gives an opportunity to learn how to see things better. Positive life events also help for the same reason. The issue is to change the way you think, that is the mechanism that solves the anger problem either way.

Does it take internal changes, external forces, conscious decisions or do unconscious factors play a role in how quickly one is able to let go of something that causes bitterness?

The important issue, regardless, is what will enable you to learn how to see the world in a more healthy and productive way. What will lead to a functional belief system and a more reasonable set of biases and assumptions. I personally am biased towards focusing on internal changes and conscious decisions because that is what you have control over. When it comes to solving a problem, I always prefer an explanation that gives you control over a situation over an explanation that leaves you passive and helpless, not being able to do anything about a problem.

External forces that are positive are helpful, of course, and unconscious factors may be important in generating the insights that lead to progress. However, again, I prefer to focus on what I control, not on what is "given to me".

Can bitterness be managed or does it just have to run its course?

I don't like the passive voice being used here in this statement. If you are indeed angry, experiencing a lot of anger, and there's nothing you can do about it in the short term, then of course such anger has to be "managed" in order to minimize the harm that the anger is doing to you.

So yes, anger can be managed, of course. Your alternative, does it "just have to run its course", is totally passive, as if you are unable to do anything about it. No, you do not have to let anger simply "run its course", you can change the way you think about or view a situation in order to be able to feel less angry about it. If the anger problem will simply disappear or "run its course" after a little while, then you don't have an anger "problem" to begin with.

Now on to the second part of Tera's questions.

What are the short term and long term effects of pro-longed bitterness? How does it serve human beings? Is it ever essential in some way for our survival? I suppose one could say it is a constructive thing if it exists long enough to help shift our direction toward something positive. Anger can be like that.

What are the short term and long term effects of pro-longed anger? Don't necessarily know off the top of my head, but it may well cause excessive stress and lead to the release of harmful chemicals that harm people’s health over time. I have heard that chronic stress, and anger is a form of stress, leads to heart disease and can indeed cause heart attacks that shorten people's lives. Being chronically angry also one can assume is not good for someone's family relationships or career. Also, being angry, very angry, is not fun, so it can be thought of as a mental health problem in its own right. Yes sure, anger has its perks, as described earlier, but overall, it is not an enjoyable state of mind.

How does it serve human beings? Is it ever essential in some way for our survival?

The purpose of anger is to motivate people to punish those who do wrong. The need for justice is the fundamental value that anger serves. Anger motivates people to punish those who do wrong, the punishment of those who do wrong is called justice, and justice is fundamentally important as it motivates people to do good instead of bad.

I suppose one could say it is a constructive thing if it exists long enough to help shift our direction toward something positive. Anger can be like that.

Anger can be constructive when it shifts our direction towards something positive? Certainly when anger is used for that purpose, then anger is serving a good end. Anger is a signal that something is wrong, that you are not being treated fairly or in an ethical fashion, that someone or something is "doing you wrong". I have been focusing on the "punishment" and "justice" side of anger as its fundamental virtue. However, it is also true that anger serves as a valuable signal telling you when you are not being treated right by somebody else. Once gaining this knowledge, that you are being treated unfairly, this then empowers you to protect yourself against the other person's abusive or selfish behavior.

However, before jumping to the conclusion of your own self-righteous virtue whenever you start feeling angry, keep in mind that anger is a tool that can be used to justify your own abusive behavior against others. Anger is a form of power, and like all forms of power, it can be abused.

Quote from TERA

Does the passage of time alleviate bitterness? Or do other (perhaps related or unrelated) favorable events help diminish it? Does it take internal changes, external forces, conscious decisions or do unconscious factors play a role in how quickly one is able to let go of something that causes bitterness? Can bitterness be managed or does it just have to run its course?

What are the short term and long term effects of pro-longed bitterness? How does it serve human beings? Is it ever essential in some way for our survival? I suppose one could say it is a constructive thing if it exists long enough to help shift our direction toward something positive. Anger can be like that.

My initial reaction to this is it's "psychobabble equine manure." But, I contemplated this a bit more as I read the responses.

What is chronic bitterness? An immature reaction / control of one's emotions, yes. A psychological disorder, not so much.

When you ask what the opposite of love is, many people respond "hate." But, if you think about it, they're really opposite sides of the same emotional coin. Both are an immense feelings one holds towards another's wellbeing. Love is a state where the happiness and wellbeing of another is crucial to your own. Hatred is where you wish or act in a fashion to ensure the lack of happiness and wellbeing in another. The opposite of love is indifference; and this is the point where many people who have loved cannot reach.

Since this website has a lot of "divorcees" on it; think about it in terms of your ex - (wife or husband.) When you loved them, you wished for their happiness. After your seperation, you felt love for them one moment, missing them and hatred for them the next (unable to turn off that faucet, the "coin" flips on you.) It's not until you hit the point of "indifference" towards them that you'll truly be able to "move on."

Chronic bitterness (as an emotional state) could be debilitating if combined with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and an inability to get over the emotional anger / bitterness associated with an event. Say a divorce has been so emotionally traumatic, you're unable to marry again. If you "blame" your ex for the pain you endured, then it could be this combination of a verified psychological disorder / emotional state.

I also wonder about the "cultural" aspects of chronic bitterness. Think about racial relations and feminism. Despite the facts, there's a social perception that seems imbedded in the "culture" of certain movements. I think about the people who talk of "slave reparations" in the United States. No slave remains alive today from the Antibellum period, yet there is a crowd that advocates it saying slavery is still responsible for the poverty of African-Americans. Arab culture seems to embody this victim mentality, where the West is responsible for the shortcomings of Arab nations. Feminists deny the facts before them and continue to insist there is a "wage gap," and repression of women. Could it be a sociological disorder?