Re: Open Question: Why are so many women against Feminism ? | |
I liked the comments on that one: Quote: "Thanks for your answer."
Thank you for yours.
Less than 4% of American physicists are female. Yet girls are now outperforming boys in mathematics at the high school level. There's something that doesn't make sense in there, if you're saying that women have equality.
Now, how much of that inequality is caused by discrimination, how much is caused by discrepancy in opportunity, and how much is caused by social pressure away from certain careers and fields of study and into others is a good question. But if you ignore the shortage of women in the highest pursuits of science, engineering, business, politics, and virtually every field of significant consequence and high achievement, then you've just got blinders on.
We can argue until the cows come home about what causes this pervasive inequality (and you might find me closer to your position than you think on that). But there aren't many women in physics. Female electrical engineers are far less common than male electrical engineers. Not a single woman has ever won the Fields medal of mathematics. And that's not equality.
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To Ollie: If your car is indicating that it's overheating, and you've got one guy who's saying that what you need to do is adjust the temperature gauge so that it says that it's fine, that person is obviously wrong. But if the other person says that you should instead ignore the problem, that person is also wrong.
The lack of women in the highest levels of profession is that gauge - it tells us that something's wrong. Nobody's saying that we should just start arbitrarily awarding things (jobs, medals, etc.) to women just to make the scales even - that would just be adjusting the gauge to mask the problem. But it's also not appropriate to ignore it. The proper response is to look under the hood, figure out what's causing those inequalities, and fix it.
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I don't think they realize how easily all the freedoms they enjoy today could be lost.
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You kind of answered your own question.
Because a lot of women realize that The Feminism that many feminists espouse does not relate to "empowerment", "equality", or "liberation". But instead is a vindictive and spiteful parade against all things male. Maybe many women see the ultimate irony, and dont want to be a part of this disgustingly sexist cherade, which advocates the very thing that they fight against.
In re to CA. Who wants to be an engineer? Not me. Naturally, womens innate talents/skills/requirements/desires may not conmpliment such a profession. I wouldn't say that an under-representative population of engineers is any indication of sexism. I just don't think women want to be in that line of work generally. It works both ways, Look at teaching, childcare, Midwifery, Counselling, Areas of journalism. Men find it ******* damn right impossible (sorry, but ive tried) to find jobs in this area because of the traditional notion that women are better at the job. I would say while traditionally male orientated industries/sectors have been villified for being "sexist", the female dominated domains get off scott free.
Im not sure about this maths prize you speak of. But if a woman was good enough to earn this. Better than any other candidate, male or female, black or white or yellow or whatever. Then she should win it. But not simply because shes a woman. Thats not diversity. Its stupidity.
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CAustin women have the same education as men so if they do not go into the sciences if of there own accord. Schools give more personal attention to girls an boys suffer through till college. An still suffer through there but men usually know what field of study they want. I know countless women who have gone to 3 years of school an want to change majors. What a waste of time an obviously not there money.
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I'm glad many women are against feminism, feminists feel threatened more by these women than by non-feminist men because these women indicate a more or less acceptance of the world they live in. Feminists of course can't accept the world they live in but believe they represent all women when in fact they hardly represent a minority of women.
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CC, women's freedom isn't at risk of being lost any more than men's .
CAustin, equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcome. You are going on the assumption that these women are forced, manipulated or cajoled out of these careers. You failed to mention the possibility that women are choosing these careers just because....no other reason, but just because.
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The biggest problem we have in America is the lack of a common language, people use words with no thought to actual meanings so people are unable to make concise statements. Feminism is a classic example, it has been used by so many people to mean so many things, many of them mutually contradictory, that it has no actual meaning of it own left. We've all seen examples of the extremists who make their own movements look bad, and feminists are no different. Equal rights under the law and equal opportunity for education and achievement regardless of gender, or for that matter, race, religion, or sexual orientation, is a goal which has by no means been achieved, I think many, if not most, people would agree with that, we need to get away from thinking about individual subgroups and start thinking about humanity as a whole.
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Dorothy Dinnerstein, an author and psychiatrist wrote a great book called "The Mermaid and the Minotaur." In it she suggests that men AND women fear a woman having power because it reminds us of the powerlessness of infancy when we were helpless and under the control of a woman. She suggests that women will never be accepted as equals in society by men OR women until men are equally involved in the care and raising of INFANTS.
Feminism has become a dirty word since the 1980's and even the definition of feminism has changed. To 21st century ears, feminism means treating women equally to men. WRONG.
I am a feminist because I believe a woman is right no matter what (because society victimizes ALL women, so "deciding" who is right is reinforcing a woman's second class status,) and until women are treated equally in society they need to be favored (ala affirmative action,) NOT just treated equally. That is feminism.
Oh and to those above who think feminism is man-hatred, I AM A MAN.
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What I see is not the rejection of feminism...majority of women live a more feminist life style and expectations then a traditional one.
See a whole lot of "I'm not a feminist but..."insert feminist topic here"
What they are rejecting..is the title. Feminist, and the bad rap it was given in the 70's.
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Convincing so many women that men as a class are responsible for the systems that were put in place by the ruling class is unreasonable. Its like saying that all Americans are responsible for the actions of their Government or all white people are responsible for the slave trade or all westerners are infidels. Total and utter divisive rubbish.
Feminists will say that women being underrepresented in government is proof that we don't have equality. Total and utter rubbish, the number of women in government is directly related to the number of women who pursue a career in politics. Same goes for wage gap, you take an outcome that has been generated by women exercising their own free will and misrepresent it as patriarchal conspiracy. These lies are circulated and it leaves many women feeling victimized and angry, needlessly.
CAustin
"Sue Palmer is a former head teacher, literacy adviser and the author of 21st Century Boys. She says it is a biological necessity that boys run about, take risks, swing off things and compete with each other to develop properly. “If they can't, a lot of them find it impossible to sit still, focus on a book or wield a pencil,” she says, “so their behaviour is considered ‘difficult', they get into trouble and tumble into a cycle of school failure.”
Boys are three times as likely as girls to need extra help with reading at primary school, and 75 per cent of children supposedly suffering from ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) are male. “We are losing boys at a rate of knots, particularly in literacy,” Palmer says, “because at some point in the past 30 years, masculinity became an embarrassment.”
"Research by Simon Baron-Cohen, a respected Cambridge professor, that began as an investigation into autism, puts a solid case for biological male/female differences in the brain, with boys tending to be “systematisers” and girls “empathisers”. This explains why boys generally are less keen on reading and comprehension, and lag behind girls in literacy. A lot of boys find it easier to explain the workings of a watch than to discuss how a character in a story is feeling. “But now,” says Palmer, “apart from the very bright ones, boys aren't even doing better at maths and science.
Some people blame this nosedive, first noticed in the mid-Nineties, on the “feminisation” of education - too many women teachers, girl-friendly classroom environments and modular exam systems that suit girls' study skills but disadvantage risk-takers. “Geniuses are much more likely to be male,” Palmer says, “but if you don't tick the right boxes, you fail.”
There are seven times as many women primary school teachers as men, but Christine Skelton, Professor of Gender Equality in Education at Birmingham University, argues that there have always been far more female teachers than male. “Obviously there are some women who understand active boys, and some men who don't, just as there are energetic girls and inactive boys,” she says.
The current generation of teachers, though, were born and raised in an atmosphere dominated by women's liberation and “non-gender-specific” education that began in the Seventies. Barbies were banned, most protagonists in books were female and there was no tolerance of war or superhero play. As a head teacher, Palmer remembers making her reception teacher remove all the cloakroom pegs that depicted tractors for boys and bunnies for girls.
“The belief was that you were shaped by your environment, and it was the teacher's responsibility to ‘socialise' boys away from their natural inclinations and to encourage girls to study traditionally male subjects such as physics and technology,” she says.
Palmer would never deny that some of it was absolutely necessary - but with movements such as Reclaim the Night, Greenham Common and Gay Pride, groups that offered an alternative perspective to the traditionally dominant male view taking centre stage, masculinity became suspect. “I really think,” she says, “that the almighty cock-up of the sisterhood in the Seventies was that we believed we could turn boys into girls.”
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_...
http://news.scotsman.com/health/Revealed...
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There aren't "so many women against feminism." Maybe the young ones still being schooled who think having a boyfriend is the biggest, most desirable thing they could possibly hope for in their young lives, but women of maturity, intelligence and awareness aren't against it. They may call themselves non-feminists, or say "I'm not a feminist, but . . . " against it?? Oh, hell no!
Until I came here I hadn't ever met an actual anti-feminist and come to think of it, I still haven't. Every woman who structures her life according to her own abilities and talents, whether she is salaried or not, has done so because of the ones who preceded her and demanded equal treatment and respect under the law. It isn't a given - and it isn't anti-male (SO lame).
The miscreant bloggers and whiners who trumpet the death of feminism do not represent mainstream thinking, or even a movement of size. Now if they actually worked on their own behalf to accomplish their goals, they might eventually become a force to be reckoned with. But they expect us to do it for them. And that will be their downfall.
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I don't have to outperform or even compete with a man in the same field to be satisfied. That's what I don't understand - why the intense need for competition?
I remember when I was young (about 9 or 10 years old), I was over at my grandparents house and 60 Minutes was about to come on. One of the topics to be discussed was Women in the Military. They showed men in a foxhole, shooting and being shot at. I said out loud (something to the effect of) "How cool would that be?". My grandpa whipped around and yelled, "What do you mean by that? You think it's fun being shot at... or shooting at other people? I never want any of the women in my life to ever have to experience that." Then he went on to complain about women who don't want doors opened for them, etc. I had NOTHING to say! I asked my dad about that a little later on, and he explained how men like to take care of women and appreciate them soft and sweet - not crude and carrying guns. Made a huge impression on me.
I think the feminist movement has actually hurt things for women. I know of only one guy who still opens the car door for his wife (and no, he's not a senior citizen!). I feel we're missing out on things like that. Thanks, feminists!
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To put this succinctly:
I am in favor of doing whatever I want to.
I am not in favor of being told to dress a certain way by feminists.
I am in favor of having the kinds of relationships I want to.
I am not in favor of being told to be a lesbian or a bitchy straight by feminists.
I am in favor of behaving like a lady, a woman, or a ??
I am not in favor of being told to act masculine by feminists.
Just what constitutes feminism?
Following the Birkenstock crowd, or blazing my own trail?
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Looking at only HALF of any issue means that you miss the other half of the information.
Feminists talk about women in poverty, according to a recent Channel 4 News program Dispatches, it claims that in the UK 1 in 3 children are now living in poverty.
Yes, there is a high proportion of single mothers in those figures, Feminists are very keen to tell you about them. But only them. There are also disabled fathers, disabled children, children in families where head of the household is an ethnic minority, there are single fathers, fathers working low paid jobs, families with 3 or 4 children, families who due to the region they live in (such as south London) are dragged into poverty by exceptionally high housing costs.
It we talk about equality, or even equity of outcome, then we have to look at the whole picture. Women do suffer from poverty, but what about the men who do too, what about those suffering from multiple discriminations such as disability and having exceptionally high housing costs?
What about every single one of those CHILDREN, who are powerless to change the situation, they are girls AND boys.
Source(s):
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/di...
http://www.cpag.org.uk/
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbai/hbai2006/...
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbai/hbai2005/...
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/famchild.asp
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Women have begun to see feminism for what it is: a misandrist movement that aims to go beyond equality
http://www.rulymob.com/
http://www.freewebs.com/feminism-evaluat...
http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/suppressio...
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I think women are against feminism because it has the possibility of becoming the reality. I think we are moving into a phase where an idea has enough power to strike fear into some people. Like when Galileo was put to jail to saying that the earth revolves around the sun and saying how the universe is infinite. Many people in the centuries have died for their ideas(scientific and political) back in the days but are accepted as reality today. I really don't see a strong logical argument that can totally put feminism away for good.
omg baba yaga, I totally get what you're saying now that I think about it. I like your answers so much. They're all so insightful. I never thought about it but I think I might be one of those stupid young girls that just want a boyfriend. Maybe life isn't about that. | I left one or two quotes out....now compare blue with pink. There is more written on our side....and its the good stuff. Backed with links as well. The pink ones again is full of bla bla (women are always right, there are only 4% female scientist, feminist is not an anti-men movement because I am a feminist and a man) that could easily be dismantled. Is the tide turning? |
7th-October-2008
