Thread: Open Question: Why do women in such high number keep accepting these 'predominantely

One of the main factors in this though, IMHO (based on experience and observation), is that women's "role" as home-maker is - like it or lump it - relatively easy and I think for many people.

If a woman wants a career, then she isn't really seen as taking someone's job away from them... But women DO seem to see a man who stays at home as taking her job.

So although both sexes mock a man who stays at home, I've found that women have the more venomous tongue about it as they're the one's 'losing' something.

Quote from Marx

One of the main factors in this though, IMHO (based on experience and observation), is that women's "role" as home-maker is - like it or lump it - relatively easy and I think for many people.

If a woman wants a career, then she isn't really seen as taking someone's job away from them... But women DO seem to see a man who stays at home as taking her job.

So although both sexes mock a man who stays at home, I've found that women have the more venomous tongue about it as they're the one's 'losing' something.

To be honest, many women won't even look at a guy that earns a penny/cent less than they; so the chances of them being happy with their partner staying at home are roughly on a par with Julie Bindel making it onto Page 3 of 'The Sun'.

I think it took for me to read a thread on another forum, containing posts from female students, as to what any potential partner of theirs MUST have, to make me realise as to what bullshit it is about it all being down to male pride. I think it was about when I got to the post written by an AVID FEMINIST - WHO REGULARLY HARPED ON ABOUT THE WAGE GAP, AND CLAIMED THAT CHIVALRY WAS AN PATRIARCHAL ACT, USED TO JUSTIFY MALE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN - , SAYING HOW ANY POTENTIAL PARTNER MUST HAVE "THE SAME INCOME OR HIGHER THAN ME", AND BE "THE SAME INTELLIGENCE OR HIGHER THAN ME", AND EVEN "ACT IN A KNIGHTLY FASHION", that I buried my head in my hands, and wondered how the fuck feminism had gained so much ground.

Frankly, some days I think I was abducted from my planet of birth when I was very small......

Quote (Marx): "One of the main factors in this though, IMHO (based on experience and observation), is that women's "role" as home-maker is - like it or lump it - relatively easy and I think for many people."

I've been a homemaker (many, many years) and currently I am in the workforce, and so I feel somewhat qualified to answer to this. Being a homemaker (if it includes child-rearing) is NOT (and I repeat NOT) "easy."

The job is a 24 hour a day job, no breaks, no vacations, no pay, no thanks, large self-sacrifices (financial, social, physical), and large sacrifices that effect the entire family (less money coming into the household.)

So no, it's not easy. Is it fulfilling? Depends on where your heart is. If it's at home raising kids, and that's where you really believe you want to be, then yes, it's fulfilling. Probably one of the most fulfilling things a person can do. It's not the cleaning, scrubbing, staying up all night stuff that's fulfilling...it's being able to watch your children grow...to be there for their first steps, their first words...it's teaching them, guiding them, loving them, and feeling needed. It's knowing that you are a big part of the glue that's holding the family together and keeping things running smoothly. It's the look of appreciation you get every now and then from the kids or from your husband that is all the thanks you need.

It is equally important to recognize and truly appreciate a husband's contributions, as well. He's working hard, too, he's sacrificing, as well. His contributions are every bit as taxing and every bit as valuable to the well being of the family as the wife's. Each member of a family is part of a team, and when all are doing their part, it's like spokes inside of a wheel, and the wheel is strong, and continues to turn.

A woman who is a full-time mother, CHOOSES to be a full-time mother; there's every chance to hire a childminder, if required.

Just because many choose to be homemakers, caregivers, doesn't necessarily mean that they are happiest with that choice. Some children come along from unexpected pregnancies...come along at a time that is bad. Maybe the woman feels no choice at all in having the baby and caring for it, yet they do because they believe they should...and along the way (I'm willing to bet) many decide that it's much more fulfilling than they could have anticipated prior.

And, some have no choice but to work. Money is required for housing, food, transportation, medical care, life's necessities. Sometimes one income just isn't enough. Many women wish they could stay at home to raise their kids, but find they cannot get by without the added income. And what's even more sad, is that sometimes child care costs are only barely offset by that source of income, which means, a woman is working outside the home 40 hours a week to end up paying a child care provider anywhere from 20-70% of her income. And some families really need that extra 20% or so a month, so they sacrifice having a mom at home in order to bring in only a few extra bucks per month just to make ends meet...and trust me, I know a few women that this applies to, and they wish for nothing more than the opportunity to be at home with their kids.

Life isn't all full of easy choices (or even choices, period) for women.

I get tired of hearing some men say that it is.

Quote from TERA

Just because many choose to be homemakers, caregivers, doesn't necessarily mean that they are happiest with that choice. Some children come along from unexpected pregnancies...come along at a time that is bad. Maybe the woman feels no choice at all in having the baby and caring for it, yet they do because they believe they should...and along the way (I'm willing to bet) many decide that it's much more fulfilling than they could have anticipated prior.

So, childminders only work for those who EXPECTED their pregnancies?

Quote from TERA

And, some have no choice but to work. Money is required for housing, food, transportation, medical care, life's necessities. Sometimes one income just isn't enough. Many women wish they could stay at home to raise their kids, but find they cannot get by without the added income. And what's even more sad, is that sometimes child care costs are only barely offset by that source of income, which means, a woman is working outside the home 40 hours a week to end up paying a child care provider anywhere from 20-70% of her income. And some families really need that extra 20% or so a month, so they sacrifice having a mom at home in order to bring in only a few extra bucks per month just to make ends meet...and trust me, I know a few women that this applies to, and they wish for nothing more than the opportunity to be at home with their kids.

Life isn't all full of easy choices (or even choices, period) for women.

I get tired of hearing some men say that it is.

But this isn't related to my point about SOCIAL expectations.

Quote from dyslexic_banana

So, childminders only work for those who EXPECTED their pregnancies?



But this isn't related to my point about SOCIAL expectations.

Ah, but it is, DB. Because underlying all these tough decisions we make (as men, as women) there is social pressure, and for women it is nearly as confusing as it is for men. We're being pushed in all directions at once. Stay at home? You're lazy. Work? You're selfish and materialistic. It's a no-win situation.

I'm just saying that I don't find that having so-called "choices" makes it any "easier" for women to decide what they will or won't do, or what they can and can't do, or what society expects of them vs. what the family needs. Sometimes having hypothetical choices can be as difficult as having none at all.

Quote from dyslexic_banana

I think it took for me to read a thread on another forum, containing posts from female students, as to what any potential partner of theirs MUST have, to make me realise as to what bullshit it is about it all being down to male pride. I think it was about when I got to the post written by an AVID FEMINIST - WHO REGULARLY HARPED ON ABOUT THE WAGE GAP, AND CLAIMED THAT CHIVALRY WAS AN PATRIARCHAL ACT, USED TO JUSTIFY MALE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN - , SAYING HOW ANY POTENTIAL PARTNER MUST HAVE "THE SAME INCOME OR HIGHER THAN ME", AND BE "THE SAME INTELLIGENCE OR HIGHER THAN ME", AND EVEN "ACT IN A KNIGHTLY FASHION", that I buried my head in my hands, and wondered how the fuck feminism had gained so much ground.

Sometimes I wonder if these women are paranoid schizophrenics or just have an inability to remember their rambling conclusions or comments from one day to the next.

Quote from dyslexic_banana

Frankly, some days I think I was abducted from my planet of birth when I was very small......

Some days I think I'll wake up from a very bad dream, to a normal, happy life where someone needs me and I do my best for them. Unfortunately the nightmare just continues.

Quote from TERA

Ah, but it is, DB. Because underlying all these tough decisions we make (as men, as women) there is social pressure, and for women it is nearly as confusing as it is for men. We're being pushed in all directions at once. Stay at home? You're lazy. Work? You're selfish and materialistic. It's a no-win situation.

I'm just saying that I don't find that having so-called "choices" makes it any "easier" for women to decide what they will or won't do, or what they can and can't do, or what society expects of them vs. what the family needs. Sometimes having hypothetical choices can be as difficult as having none at all.

But your point seemed to be regarding women who work through financial necessity, whilst mine are regarding the lack of social pressure placed upon women, as compared to that placed upon men. I can't say I've ever heard women being criticised for staying at home and looking after their kids, and very rarely have I heard them being criticised for working and hiring a nanny/childminder.

Quote from TERA

I've been a homemaker (many, many years) and currently I am in the workforce, and so I feel somewhat qualified to answer to this. Being a homemaker (if it includes child-rearing) is NOT (and I repeat NOT) "easy."
The job is a 24 hour a day job, no breaks, no vacations, no pay, no thanks, large self-sacrifices (financial, social, physical), and large sacrifices that effect the entire family (less money coming into the household.)

I agree to some degree. In times gone by, it was perhaps a lot more difficult than it is today. But I spent a good two-years as a SAHD. During that time we moved home about four times and hadn't always got the tools for various jobs. For example, in the one home, we had no carpet and only a couple of rugs. It was a tiled floor and more often than not, it would get dirty only an hour or so after cleaning it. We had no mop & bucket for a good while as our money had to go on other essentials. I had to get on my hands & knees every other day and scrub that floor (the entire of the ground-floor) with my hands, a sink bowl and a scouring scrubber. That includes having a slipped disc in my back as well as other medical issues that I won't bore everyone with. Now if we'd had a mop & bucket, it would've been done in 20 minutes, cutting my workload down by a considerable amount.
Then I was dealing with my baby/toddler daughter all day. Ex wife would get in, and go lock herself in the bedroom for the entire evening until the kids had gone to bed. She'd only come out for food, drinks & cigarettes (which eventually changed by putting an ashtray in our room instead of coming out for one). On top of that, I then also had to deal with the step-son, who was ADHD, ODD and a whole host of other problems that were, imho, used to excuse endless ill-behaviours.
Even with that, having lived the life - I still insist that being a home-maker is not that tough. A lot of women (and I generalise here as it is mostly women who 'choose' to be home-makers) complain they don't get a moments' rest... but reality is - if it's all done in the morning while baby is nappying, step-kid at school, partner at work - the afternoon is FREE!!!

Quote from TERA

...Is it fulfilling? Depends on where your heart is. If it's at home raising kids, and that's where you really believe you want to be, then yes, it's fulfilling. Probably one of the most fulfilling things a person can do.

Quite so. Sadly, as dyslexic banana made note of though... women (generalizing again) don't want their man to be doing what they perceive (suddenly) as 'easy work' or... in a very sexist mind 'their job'. They do bash, they do gang up, they do mock, they do marginalize, they do nit-pick, they do question your masculinity, and so on and so on. There's no point telling me it doesn't happen when I've lived it directly.

Quote from TERA

It's not the cleaning, scrubbing, staying up all night stuff that's fulfilling...it's being able to watch your children grow...to be there for their first steps, their first words...it's teaching them, guiding them, loving them, and feeling needed.

And in a man's case, being suddenly thrown out for no reason.

Quote from TERA

It's knowing that you are a big part of the glue that's holding the family together and keeping things running smoothly. It's the look of appreciation you get every now and then from the kids or from your husband that is all the thanks you need.

Same as above. If you got appreciative commentry from your kids & spouse - you were fortunate. Had you been male, you wouldn't not have been so fortunate, as I saw. Step-son complained about EVERY (literally) meal.. there was always something wrong with my cooking. Ex-wife complained about floor, general tidiness, presentation, washing, laundry, folding even... It's not always what is said - it's sometimes what isn't said (in conjunction with body language, etc.).
For example, while living in the child-abusing mother-in law's home, I cooked on my Ex's birthday. I did steaks. Her face showed how much she didn't apprciate the efforts, and the more-or-less full plate thrown away said it all. Later that evening, her so-called brother cooked pizza. Just plain ol' home-made pizza. She ate stacks of it and expressed her gratitude to him three times in the course of 1/2 hour, one time specifically shouting over to him 'through' me.

Quote from TERA

It is equally important to recognize and truly appreciate a husband's contributions, as well. He's working hard, too, he's sacrificing, as well. His contributions are every bit as taxing and every bit as valuable to the well being of the family as the wife's. Each member of a family is part of a team, and when all are doing their part, it's like spokes inside of a wheel, and the wheel is strong, and continues to turn.

Well my wheel is well and truly buckled. Actually, my whole bike got bastard thieved again so I have no wheel.

Quote from brian44

Sometimes I wonder if these women are paranoid schizophrenics or just have an inability to remember their rambling conclusions or comments from one day to the next.

Ha, yeah, although, let's be fair, how could ANYONE remember so many lies as feminists tell? No wonder they're so inconsistent with their logic.

Quote from dyslexic_banana

But your point seemed to be regarding women who work through financial necessity, whilst mine are regarding the lack of social pressure placed upon women, as compared to that placed upon men. I can't say I've ever heard women being criticised for staying at home and looking after their kids, and very rarely have I heard them being criticised for working and hiring a nanny/childminder.

My point was (actually there's more than one point)- is that some women have to work out of financial necessity, and for them there is no choice. But some, as you rightly observe, get the luxury of having a choice, and some choose to stay at home, while others choose a career, and some try to balance both (work part time). Whatever the choice, it's rarely an easy one to make, or an easy one to stick with. And regardless of the choice, there are those who will criticize it. You say you don't hear these criticisms, and I believe you, because you're a male. Walk a few thousand miles in a woman's shoe, and you'd likely have a different experience. I've heard the criticisms, directed toward myself, and toward other females in my life...and I know (and have known) many, many women throughout my life. Women tend to have large social networks. We're a communicative lot.

I'll take this one step further by adding that the pressure women put on other women seems stronger (more pervasive) than the pressure women perceive from other men. The older female generations exert a lot of pressure on the younger in regard to traditionalism, and younger women are struggling with reconciling this and the idea that they can/should also have a career.

For the most part, I think many women that work today do so out of necessity, but still bear the criticisms (and the consequential guilt) imparted by the older generations to the younger, who seem to not understand that it is a necessity to work in many cases.

Quote from TERA

Whatever the choice, it's rarely an easy one to make, or an easy one to stick with.

Hmmmm.......

Quote from TERA

Walk a few thousand miles in a woman's shoe

I do, regularly.......ooops.....

Quote from TERA

I've heard the criticisms, directed toward myself, and toward other females in my life...and I know (and have known) many, many women throughout my life. Women tend to have large social networks. We're a communicative lot.

Still don't think that it's comparable to the lack of choice that men have, as at least it is women you are saying criticise other women, and not their own partners.

Quote from TERA

I'll take this one step further by adding that the pressure women put on other women seems stronger (more pervasive) than the pressure women perceive from other men. The older female generations exert a lot of pressure on the younger in regard to traditionalism, and younger women are struggling with reconciling this and the idea that they can/should also have a career.

Quite possible that this pressure exists, admittedly. If it's the older FEMALE generations, mainly, however, then this certainly provides evidence to the contrary of the old state of affairs being the result of a PATRIARCHY; if it were, then wouldn't older generations of males be the main criticisers of such women's choices?

I'll take this one step further by adding that the pressure women put on other women seems stronger (more pervasive) than the pressure women perceive from other men.

Feminism.

Simone de Bouvoir, feminist Saint. "No woman should be allowed to stay at home".

Percy, MRA Warrior. "You can lead a whore to Goethe but you can't make her think".