What is a "real man?" Someone should explain this to me. I was under the impression that men were human beings and could be any way they wanted.

I certainly don't feel the "traditional male" is a very positive thing to be. All gruff, never expressing what he feels, being cold with his children, paying no attention to himself as a person, killing himself trying to make women happy, physically attacking other men for looking at him the wrong way. Go to a prison and you'll find a whole lot of 'real men' there.

I certainly wouldn't want children raised by father's who are like that. My father was a "traditonal male" and I couldn't freaking stand him.

"The traditional female," in my view is pretty fucked up too. Never having an important thought, being overly self-worshiping, talking on the phone all the time, never playing with her kids. I know a lot of single mothers and the main problem single mother's have is they're no fun. Kids will end up pretty messed up if their parents are no fun. Most of my son's friends who are raised by single mothers are zombies who have no personality, energy or sense of humor. They lost all their youthfulness by living with sterile, boring women.

Fathers need to learn to be more nurturing and mothers need to be more fun. The role of genders have to be broadened in this new "split family world" we live in. The split family world cannot be changed, so we need to change with it. Plus, I don't think the traditional male is a positive thing in general.

I certainly don't feel the "traditional male" is a very positive thing to be. All gruff, never expressing what he feels, being cold with his children, paying no attention to himself as a person, killing himself trying to make women happy, physically attacking other men for looking at him the wrong way. Go to a prison and you'll find a whole lot of 'real men' there.

Look in the mirror. Look into your eyes.

Is there anyone there?

You have a very strange idea of what a 'Traditional' man is.

A Feminazi idea.

Quote from Percy

Look in the mirror. Look into your eyes.

Is there anyone there?

You have a very strange idea of what a 'Traditional' man is.

A Feminazi idea.

i agree Percy

Well, I feel that the traditional female and the traditional male are both fucked up.

In defense of my "traditional male" comment, I challenge anyone to come up with more than two famous historical american males, or a man that we identify as part of our heritage that doesn't fit the description I gave. I think even Abraham Lincoln- who was otherwise a good person- fits it rather well.

why do they need to be famous?

my dad is famous in my eyes-along with a few uncles,cousins and even my grandparents when they were still alive -a long list of dads that cared for their kids-u musta had a bad experience and a not to caring father for u to feel this way.

another follower.......that needs someone famous to follow and believe or it won't do any good

This is what you said.

I certainly don't feel the "traditional male" is a very positive thing to be. All gruff, never expressing what he feels, being cold with his children, paying no attention to himself as a person, killing himself trying to make women happy, physically attacking other men for looking at him the wrong way. Go to a prison and you'll find a whole lot of 'real men' there.

I won't speak in the particular for all American men as I have met and worked with probably no more than 5000 in my life, and most of them were traditional. Maybe they were not Traditional enough being mostly military types. But few if any were jail material; I don't recall any attacking someone for looking at them in any particular manner; most were easy to read in emotional terms, expressing the full range of normal emotions as appropriate; many had children and appeared to actually love them and I seem to recall one or a hundred playing with them; a few were quite gruff, but that was when the chips were down and they were concentrating on getting difficult tasks done with the occasional fuckwit nearby saying demeaning, villifying things about them.

Quote from outdoors

why do they need to be famous?

my dad is famous in my eyes-along with a few uncles,cousins and even my grandparents when they were still alive -a long list of dads that cared for their kids-u musta had a bad experience and a not to caring father for u to feel this way.

another follower.......that needs someone famous to follow and believe or it won't do any good

When we speak of a "traditional" something, we're talking about culture. Historical icons say quite a bit about that culture's expectations of behavior.

Tradition is defined as (wiki) "Beliefs or customs taught by one generation to the next, often orally. For example, we can speak of the tradition of sending birth announcements."

You can argue to a great extent about the other elements of "traditional males" I brought up, you would be wrong, but you can argue them. What you cannot argue is that traditional men believed that women should take care of their kids for them. That is not acceptable.

Quote from Percy

This is what you said.

I certainly don't feel the "traditional male" is a very positive thing to be. All gruff, never expressing what he feels, being cold with his children, paying no attention to himself as a person, killing himself trying to make women happy, physically attacking other men for looking at him the wrong way. Go to a prison and you'll find a whole lot of 'real men' there.

I won't speak in the particular for all American men as I have met and worked with probably no more than 5000 in my life, and most of them were traditional. Maybe they were not Traditional enough being mostly military types. But few if any were jail material; I don't recall any attacking someone for looking at them in any particular manner; most were easy to read in emotional terms, expressing the full range of normal emotions as appropriate; many had children and appeared to actually love them and I seem to recall one or a hundred playing with them; a few were quite gruff, but that was when the chips were down and they were concentrating on getting difficult tasks done with the occasional fuckwit nearby saying demeaning, villifying things about them.

What's your point? I'm not talking about norms of behavior, I'm talking about traditions. I'm talking about a culture's expectations for behavior. Our culture's expectations for male behavior have always been negative.

Men in prison are much closer to our culture's expectations for male behavior than Mr. Rogers. Mr. Rogers was not a "real man," according to the traditional thought of the matter.

My father was a "traditonal male" and I couldn't freaking stand him.

That's feminist culture talking.

The traditional male built civilization.

AdensDad, who defined for you this definition of a "traditional man"?

Seriously, reading all your posts of this page (3), all I've really been thinking is precisely what Garak has said above... You're viewing traditional men from a feminist perspective. Ok, so your father wasn't brilliant - but I daresay your mom was not perfect either. Do all the many men you know who are older act the way you describe/define traditional men?

I'm betting not... so why would you think the feminist definition is right?

"Traditional male" is such a tired buzzphrase which means sweet diddley-squat. It's the kind of phrase used in my sociology lectures to describe a man very much like the fathers mentioned so far in this thread. What a load, I tell you.

There is/was no traditional man/woman and you certainly can't put them into such arbitrary categories [According to my grandfather who is a near perfect masculine influence and has taught me much].

This question only raises more such as; What is a "real man"? A question that cannot be answered.

So essentially you are saying Adensdad that gender (or sex) is a social construct.

If that isn't typical femikook gobblygook, I don't know what is!

TMOTS

Quote from Marx

AdensDad, who defined for you this definition of a "traditional man"?

Seriously, reading all your posts of this page (3), all I've really been thinking is precisely what Garak has said above... You're viewing traditional men from a feminist perspective. Ok, so your father wasn't brilliant - but I daresay your mom was not perfect either.

No she wasn't. She was pretty far from perfect, actually. I've also argued- though not on this page- that the traditional woman is just as fucked-up as the traditional man. If the thread title asked "where are all the real men and women at?" I would have spoken at great lengths about traditional women also.

Do all the many men you know who are older act the way you describe/define traditional men?

No, but I would argue more of them do than men of my generation and generation Y. Unlike the author of the yahoo question this thread is based on, I believe we are moving in the right direction as a gender. I believe male behavior today is becoming more positive than it once was.

Again, I think you're confusing the term "norm" with the term "tradition." It is a tradition for instance, to engage in patriotism. Not everyone used to engage in patriotism, but less do today than once did. Patriotism is considered overall an ideal way to think.

why would you think the feminist definition is right?

I never said that. Feminists want the traditional male. Feminists want us to be crazy barbarians who worship at their feet. They want us to destroy ourselves.

I once told a coworker that I was planning on losing some weight, because I was getting a little too big for my taste and I was worried about health issues later in life. She said "I wouldn't want to date a man who was thinner than me," if my boyfriend lost too much weight I would dump him.

I think this mentality rules much of the way women think about men. They feel good about themselves when we destroy ourselves. The traditional male as I describe it, is what feminists want. Women are scared of being raped by a man, but they are more scared of living in a world where men do not rape at all. They prefer us to behave badly than to think of us as moral equals.

Found this earlier:
http://cms.mgtow.net/?q=node/45

You've probably already read it before though.