Quote from TheOldOligarch

I don't know about that Zuberi, I would say that history shows there is a maximum level of brutality and sadism that you can safely display in such situations. Good examples of exceeding the limit would be the Assyrian Kings or the Mongol Khans; far too bloodthirsty to ever create a lasting empire.

I think some of the real reasons why certain empires collapsed faster than others is because of three flaws; Sex, drugs and brutality.

Quote from Zuberi

I think some of the real reasons why certain empires collapsed faster than others is because of three flaws; Sex, drugs and brutality.

Empires collapse for much the same reason we see so much socialism popping up in the west today. Eventually a point is reached where a society becomes so rich that it becomes possible to maintain a generation or two simply via the consumption of that wealth. This is percieved by the inhabitants of said society, either consciously or unconsciously depending upon their intellect and temperament. As this happens, there arises within the populace a collective drive towards this course of action, the richer the society becomes, the greater so too does this drive become, this is the reason the collapse of all empires is inevitable. No law or constitution or tradition can hold out against this drive, since there is no upper limit to how strong it can become, it simply intensifies and intensifies as you become richer and richer, eventually, any elements that resist it will be overwhelmed, it is only a matter of time.

You see humans are only built to look so far into the future, we do not possess the psychological propensity for caring what happens in 500 years time, since for the overwhelming majority of our history such a propensity would have been useless. So the wealthier you become, the more time it will take for you to consume all your resources if you don't replenish them as fast as you consume them. The ''breaking point'' as it were is when this point is pushed further into the future than human beings are psychologically programmed to care about. Once this happens, it's basically game over.

It is similar in effect to a market force, no amount of conscious effort on the part of humans has ever been able to halt the dictates of market forces. All you can do is temporarily hold them at bay, while saving up a great deal of pain of suffering for yourself in the future. Even Communism, which sought to tottaly subjugate the market to the conscious will of the state was in the end revealed to be utterly helpless against it.

That doesnt make sense. Every nation is 2 days away from anarchy. That is how long a society can last when no one goes to work.

Quote from haahoo

That doesnt make sense. Every nation is 2 days away from anarchy. That is how long a society can last when no one goes to work.

Things dont work in extremes like that, I'm not saying everyone suddenly quits their job and just lazes about, what happens is we start consuming more than we are producing. We've been doing this for a while now, our governments spend more than they take in in taxes, we have negative savings rates (capital consumption) you hear constantly how almost all our manufacturing (ie, real production) is gone, it is now the conventional ''wisdom'' that consumption and consumer demand is what keeps the economy going, because that is what our ''economies'' are; consumption.

The South American 'empires' never achieved 'conspicuous consumption' but went straight from rudimentary hierarchy to mass psychosis. Ghengis Khan was a philanthopist in comparison to the Aztecs.

That said, you have an interesting thesis there TOO.

Maybe I am missing something fundamental, but I would think it would be impossible to consume MORE than is produced..

If a cow produces 10 gallons of milk in a week then you cant drink 11 gallons a milk in a week.. And even if you have a bit saved up from before, it doesnt stay fresh for long!

This principle applies to most "real" commodities I would think.

Everyone knows you can, however, spend more money than you have, because money is not "real" as it where..

Quote from Percy

The South American 'empires' never achieved 'conspicuous consumption' but went straight from rudimentary hierarchy to mass psychosis. Ghengis Khan was a philanthopist in comparison to the Aztecs.

That said, you have an interesting thesis there TOO.

Disease was a major cause of some huge losses of life and empires. The earopeans introduced much disease into the new world which wiped out civilisations.

I heard somewhere that LEAD POISONING was the cause of the decline of the roman empire. The elites used it as a sweetener with their food, did not do much for their leadership abilities when it drove them bonkers though!

Quote from haahoo

Maybe I am missing something fundamental, but I would think it would be impossible to consume MORE than is produced..

It's very possible to consume more than what's produce just ask the welfare whores and the liberal zombies.

Quote from Zuberi

It's very possible to consume more than what's produce just ask the welfare whores and the liberal zombies.

A part of society can consume more than it produces but the whole of society cannot consume more than what the whole of society produces can it? Not when it comes to real resources..

Quote from haahoo

Maybe I am missing something fundamental, but I would think it would be impossible to consume MORE than is produced..

If a cow produces 10 gallons of milk in a week then you cant drink 11 gallons a milk in a week.. And even if you have a bit saved up from before, it doesnt stay fresh for long!

This principle applies to most "real" commodities I would think.

Everyone knows you can, however, spend more money than you have, because money is not "real" as it where..

You are missing something fundamental.

It is possible to sell that cow, put the money away and then use it to buy milk as and when until it runs out. You can sell your tractor and use the money to go on a binge at expensive restaurants and luxury rental cars, you can sell the factory you own and use the money to buy a decade's worth of expensive holidays. It is very possible to consume more than you produce when you have capital saved up.

It's quite simple, if I've spending more money than I'm earning I'm effectively consuming more than I'm producing. If I have savings in the bank I can do this until those savings run out, the more savings I have the more I can live beyond my means and I can do it for longer. We basically ran out of savings a while ago and have been funding our consumption by borrowing money, this is even worse than consuming your own savings.

A part of society can consume more than it produces but the whole of society cannot consume more than what the whole of society produces can it? Not when it comes to real resources..

The stuff we consume gets produced in countries like China.

Quote from TheOldOligarch

You are missing something fundamental.

It is possible to sell that cow, put the money away and then use it to buy milk as and when until it runs out. You can sell your tractor and use the money to go on a binge at expensive restaurants and luxury rental cars, you can sell the factory you own and use the money to buy a decade's worth of expensive holidays. It is very possible to consume more than you produce when you have capital saved up.

It's quite simple, if I've spending more money than I'm earning I'm effectively consuming more than I'm producing. If I have savings in the bank I can do this until those savings run out, the more savings I have the more I can live beyond my means and I can do it for longer. We basically ran out of savings a while ago and have been funding our consumption by borrowing money, this is even worse than consuming your own savings.



The stuff we consume gets produced in countries like China.

Well at least we both can agree that our countries are bankrupt and going into the toilet. It's only a matter of time before the community is raised above the individual!

Quote from TheOldOligarch

You are missing something fundamental.

It is possible to sell that cow, put the money away and then use it to buy milk as and when until it runs out. You can sell your tractor and use the money to go on a binge at expensive restaurants and luxury rental cars, you can sell the factory you own and use the money to buy a decade's worth of expensive holidays. It is very possible to consume more than you produce when you have capital saved up.

It's quite simple, if I've spending more money than I'm earning I'm effectively consuming more than I'm producing. If I have savings in the bank I can do this until those savings run out, the more savings I have the more I can live beyond my means and I can do it for longer. We basically ran out of savings a while ago and have been funding our consumption by borrowing money, this is even worse than consuming your own savings.



The stuff we consume gets produced in countries like China.

In that case, someone is is producing the goods, so "we" dont need to, and therefore "we" can quite easily consume more than we produce, but, someone, somewhere, HAS to provide/produce the goods..

Surely the money of a nation that has balance of payments deficit will rapidly become next to worthless?

Quote from haahoo

In that case, someone is is producing the goods, so "we" dont need to, and therefore "we" can quite easily consume more than we produce,

For a time, yes.

Surely the money of a nation that has balance of payments deficit will rapidly become next to worthless?

Yes, what do you think is happening right now? Since the start of the recession the Pound Sterling lost about 30% of it's value, I wouldnt be surprised if it lost a lot more before the end. This thing isnt over, we'll see how much our money is worth when the dust settles.

Quote from Percy

The South American 'empires' never achieved 'conspicuous consumption' but went straight from rudimentary hierarchy to mass psychosis. Ghengis Khan was a philanthopist in comparison to the Aztecs.

That said, you have an interesting thesis there TOO.

Have you ever had the thought that the Aztecs invoked the Spanish conquest due to the massive 'karmic' debt they collected with all their human sacrifices?