Come to their senses? What senses? I personally wonder why men expect women to do anything unselfish or moral when history has shown they're just not capable of it.

Quote from Arbalest

Come to their senses? What senses? I personally wonder why men expect women to do anything unselfish or moral when history has shown they're just not capable of it.

I'd disagree with this... it's in recent history that feminism has 'taught' women to behave this way.

Quote from Marx

I'd disagree with this... it's in recent history that feminism has 'taught' women to behave this way.

I dunno Marx, it seems to me that feminism has merely allowed women to act natural and that previous religions and societies have rightfully put limits on the power women had.

Quote from Garak

I dunno Marx, it seems to me that feminism has merely allowed women to act natural and that previous religions and societies have rightfully put limits on the power women had.

No one wants to touch this. I understand and will likely get a warning out of it.

Let me just say that I am as uncomfortable saying it as everyone else is reading it but I believe it be true and truth is important. I also think that the discomfort comes from all of us being indoctrinated by feminist ideas, some of us from birth.

Quote from Billy

I will. There is no personal insult that deserves a warning. I think there is a lot of truth here.

Indepedence gave women the freedom to do all things without responsiblity for their actions. It freed them from the control of men yet men still take responsibility for the women.

I agree with the bulgar too. Women don't like any negatives being pointed their way. Like a spoilt child they don't want to have to change or apologize.

Thanks, I was worried about how this would be taken. I don't know how far we can get with this movement if we adhere to the feminist idea that the only difference between men and women is the plumbing. It is that idea that makes this truth (so I think) so uncomfortable, even to us as we have been told this for so many years and some of us, since birth.

Personally I've been waiting for men to come to their senses, because without their silence, inactivity and complicity, we wouldn't be in the shit we're in.

Quote from brian44

Personally I've been waiting for men to come to their senses, because without their silence, inactivity and complicity, we wouldn't be in the shit we're in.

Which suggests that men have allowed women to run wild and women acted naturally and created this chaos.

I dunno Marx, it seems to me that feminism has merely allowed women to act natural and that previous religions and societies have rightfully put limits on the power women had.

Women are not naturally evil. We both, men and women, have the propensity for good and evil, our choices and actions determing which we become.

Even in religion, there is choice. Women were told they should behave in a certain fashion, but they still had the ability to choose whether or not they would do so. I'm highly religious, as are other women I know, nobody's forcing us to be honest, charitable and faithful. I can only speak for myself, but I don't do it because I'm scared of burning in Hell, either. I do it because it's what's right and, above all, I want to do what is right.

Believing in a religion is not enough. There has to be the desire for righteousness. I've known many people, men and women, who believed their religion to be true but chose not to follow it.

I've found that women tend to be rather all or nothing creatures and are more easily corrupted once they've started to give in to sin. A woman who has embraced goodness is a kind, and wonderful being. A woman who has embraced other, uglier aspects of herself is a very ugly creature.

I think women have a difficult time wearing multiple hats....which is why women who are extremely ambitious in their careers tend to become dominated by that characteristic, their drive and ambition canceling out other more pleasant aspects of their personalites. By the same token, women who decide they're going to be sexually promiscuous tend to also become dominated by that characteristic, which is why I think chastity was emphasised more for women than for men.

Quote from Kim

Women are not naturally evil. We both, men and women, have the propensity for good and evil, our choices and actions determing which we become.

Even in religion, there is choice. Women were told they should behave in a certain fashion, but they still had the ability to choose whether or not they would do so. I'm highly religious, as are other women I know, nobody's forcing us to be honest, charitable and faithful. I can only speak for myself, but I don't do it because I'm scared of burning in Hell, either. I do it because it's what's right and, above all, I want to do what is right.

Believing in a religion is not enough. There has to be the desire for righteousness. I've known many people, men and women, who believed their religion to be true but chose not to follow it.

I've found that women tend to be rather all or nothing creatures and are more easily corrupted once they've started to give in to sin. A woman who has embraced goodness is a kind, and wonderful being. A woman who has embraced other, uglier aspects of herself is a very ugly creature.

I think women have a difficult time wearing multiple hats....which is why women who are extremely ambitious in their careers tend to become dominated by that characteristic, their drive and ambition canceling out other more pleasant aspects of their personalites. By the same token, women who decide they're going to be sexually promiscuous tend to also become dominated by that characteristic, which is why I think chastity was emphasised more for women than for men.

I am not saying women are naturally evil Kim. I am saying that men and women are different and that women do not make good leaders because they are more self centered than men.

Self centered is not evil but ask yourself where we would be if the roles had been reversed since time began? Even the Bible instructs us that the strengths of women are different than those of men and if anything, the Bible enslaves us to allow women to compliment civilization. We are charged with building and maintaining civilization and we have done so with everyone, men, women and children in mind. Would women have done the same? If feminism has shown us anything it's that as leaders, women would have been too self centered to build civilization much less maintain it. What of protecting men and children, are women willing? No, women consider their money theirs and his money theirs. Women hate the idea of supporting children on their money alone and they really hate the idea of supporting men on their money alone. This is why women are so willing to force men in to slavery via child alimony to pay for what women consider THEIR child (another sign of selfishness). You have read the numerous articles about women who have to pay alimony, they think it is an injustice but they didn't seem to mind when it was a man only thing, same goes with child alimony.

Oops, I talked about providing for but I never got into the protecting part. The phone rang and I lost my concentration. Let me finish here:

Are women willing to go to war to defend our freedom while men stay home and work in the factories or just stay home and collect the military pay check? No, of course not and are women willing to chase off the burglar in the middle of the night while men stay in bed?

You see, to say women are different in the way they set their priorities is not misogyny but we have been told that for so long we have come to believe it.

I am not saying women are naturally evil Kim. I am saying that men and women are different and that women do not make good leaders because they are more self centered than men.

Yes, I believe we've had this conversation before, Garak.

If you'll remember, I agree that selfishness is more a negative trait of womens than it is of mens. I also agree (as you can see from my previous post) that women are not as equipped to lead as men are.

However, the acts of selfishness we see displayed in modern society by women, the complete disregard for the lives of others, is evil.

I don't agree with is any implication that women are incapable of being selfless. It is a struggle, perhaps something that requires effort to achieve, but it is completely achievable and they should be just as cupable as men are when they are destructively selfish and self-centered.

People are comprised of both negative and positive attributes. It is no more normal for them to act upon their negative attributes than their positive ones. Women acting abominably is not women just being themselves, it's women being the very worst part of themselves....CHOOSING to be the very worst part of themselves when they could have chosen to be the very best.

I know you're not religious, Garak, but in my religion, while women and men are considered different and they are expected to fulfill different roles, women and men are both expected to maintain the same moral standards. I've yet to read anything that implies that, as a woman, I'm not accountable for selfishly destroying the lives of others. Men and women are both expected to selfless, honest, charitable, kind and virtuous.

I don't think it's misogyny to say women can't help but be vilely selfish, I think it's allowing women to escape accountability for their actions. They can be selfless, they are capable of introspection and they should carry full responsibility for their actions and the evil they do.

Women said they could do anything a man could do, some even said they could do it better.

Men, being fair minded (which is why we make better leaders IMO), decided to give women a shot to prove that and what have we seen?

Male hatred thrown at us all and even male children are attacked. Selfishness pushed through the lawmakers to benefit not society, but women only.

Men never treated women this way.

If you'll remember, I agree that selfishness is more a negative trait of womens than it is of mens. I also agree (as you can see from my previous post) that women are not as equipped to lead as men are.

Then we agree.

However, the acts of selfishness we see displayed in modern society by women, the complete disregard for the lives of others, is evil.

God didn't create women to be evil, he created women to be complimentary. He made Eve from Adam for Adam, am I right or do I need to brush up on Genesis?

Selfishness is a trait that God put in there because it was necessary. I don't know why it was necessary but I trust that it is. For that reason I cannot call it evil.

I can agree that the result we see today is evil. In short, the trait is not evil, the result of the trait can be though but men have negative traits too which is why we need to be complimented by women and women by us. I hope that made sense.

I am not religious but I speak in your language to make the conversation easier. The atheist version just changes God to nature or evolution.

I don't agree with is any implication that women are incapable of being selfless. It is a struggle, perhaps something that requires effort to achieve, but it is completely achievable and they should be just as cupable as men are when they are destructively selfish and self-centered.

I never said women were incapable of being selfless. I do think though that selfishness is prominent in women than in men, for which we agree.

People are comprised of both negative and positive attributes. It is no more normal for them to act upon their negative attributes than their positive ones. Women acting abominably is not women just being themselves, it's women being the very worst part of themselves....CHOOSING to be the very worst part of themselves when they could have chosen to be the very best.

I am not convinced of this but if you are right then feminism is pushing this, let's fight it.

I know you're not religious, Garak, but in my religion, while women and men are considered different and they are expected to fulfill different roles, women and men are both expected to maintain the same moral standards. I've yet to read anything that implies that, as a woman, I'm not accountable for selfishly destroying the lives of others. Men and women are both expected to selfless, honest, charitable, kind and virtuous.

The Bible actually makes women blameless. It is up to us to ensure that women are not selfish.

I don't think it's misogyny to say women can't help but be vilely selfish, I think it's allowing women to escape accountability for their actions. They can be selfless, they are capable of introspection and they should carry full responsibility for their actions and the evil they do.

God doesn't agree, he finds women blameless. Is that his way of saying that women cannot control themselves and therefore should not be held accountable?

Men never treated women this way.

And they wouldn't, which is why feminism was used to destroy society. In order for society to be destroyed, for goodness to end and evil to reign, the family had to first be destroyed. The only way to destroy the family and the natural relationship between men and women was to turn women against men. It had to be done this way because men, who have always sacrificed and done all for their wives and families, would not have turned against women.

That does not mean that women are just naturally selfish and incapable of being anything but, it means that, upon embracing the worst sides of themselves, they were capable of turning against men and in doing so, destroying the bonds between men and women. where men were not.