Quote from Garak

I think big government cannot be stopped and I think the IF big government will destroy itself...I would rather it be sooner rather than later. I would also like to see men get some of the free health care pie, since we are the ones paying the most taxes.

BTW, I also believe that the only way to go back is for the current system to be destroyed and start over.

I can see the logic in that, though I disagree and think its still possible to salvage our current system if we hang on long enough. The first glimmers of a return to libertarian principles can be seen here in Europe, its just a case of holding off the plunge into the abyss for long enough.

So if that is what you believe, then why all the bullshit about UHC being a better system? You've essentialy just admitted its going to speed us towards the abyss. You realize if you'd just said this to start with there wouldnt have been an argument?

Women getting into the workforce is why a double income is needed.

Only in the short term. Obviously such a sudden influx of labour will create downward pressure on wages, but at the end of the day, if you can get more people labouring productively in the economy, you will have a more prosperous nation. The problem arises from the fact that women disproportionaly take up ''make-work'' positions in government or sectors with heavy government involvement like healthcare.

Still, if we did away with such things and had a small government then having women in the workforce will actually make society richer overall,

So if that is what you believe, then why all the bullshit about UHC being a better system?

It isn't bullshit, in our current environment, UHC is the better system. Costs are out of control and the average MALE citizen (who is not rich) has little chance of getting health care. If he were female, chances are he could get medicaid which is UHC.

So we are stuck with a system that is driving jobs out of the country, employer paid insurance. Since it drives jobs out of the country....you can see how that won't last much longer.

YES! UHC is the best option right now. After the revolution (if there is one) then we can start over.

Thing is though, how good is our system if it must be replaced every 200 years?

I am wrong everyone who says "CAPITALISM IS PERFECT" wins. - Garak, after tiring of being owned

Nice sig but I didn't think adults actually used the terminology of "owned".

Quote from Garak

It isn't bullshit, in our current environment, UHC is the better system. Costs are out of control and the average MALE citizen (who is not rich) has little chance of getting health care. If he were female, chances are he could get medicaid which is UHC.

So are stuck with a system that is driving jobs out of the country.

YES! UHC is the best option right now. After the revolution (if there is one) then we can start over.

Thing is though, how good is our system if it must be replaced every 200 years?

Ok then, so you're accepting that UHC is a destructive a foolish system that redcues quality and increases costs? You merely want to see it impemented because currently more women get free healthcare than men?

To be honest I really dont care what you're justifications are. So long as you will acknowledge the economic fact that UHC is infinitely inferior to allowing the free market to provide healthcare the same way we let it provide food and clothing. Everything else is just peronal opinion.

And anyway, the free market system doesnt have to be replaced every 200 years. It's just that inevitably it gets corrupted by the unholy alliance of working class envy and governmental coercive power. So it needs to cleaned out every now and then. Nothing is imperishable Garak, how many items do you own that do not require any kind of maintenance or cleaning? That's all it is, the fre market requires maintenance just like a car or a fridge does.

Garak, what you don't get is that neither me nor TOO support the system you have in the US. The system you have is as free market as the mortgage industry was free market - they just had the government cosigning mortgages, setting interest rates and government institutions being the biggest buyers of subprime.

And Medicaid isn't UHC. Actually Medicare and Medicaid are part of the reasons why you have bigger prices. I hope you do get that. And the tax code is driving the businesses out of the country, not healthcare.

TOO, you get a cookie for the women joining the workforce decreasing wages fallacy. By this logic, only a man working and supporting everyone in the nation would mean that he'd get paid a lot more, which would make it possible for him to maintain everyone.

http://rebelliousvanilla.wordpress.c...working-women/
I wrote that a while back since I had this argument.


A big reason for it. Another reason is the US becoming a consumer society and not producing anything anymore.

Quote from Garak

I can tell you something that many forget. In capitalist America, men work so women can get free shit. Is it any wonder men are getting sick of it?

Indeed!
However, those overfed women will have to answer for their treacheries!
It won't be pretty and the boys and men that they've pissed on won't spare them!

we have UHC in Australia

and for any procedural services access slow Oh so slow !!!!!

folks wait n wait n wait to get attended even whether it is for acute care - may wait 12 - 18 hrs then attended by trainee doctors

or for major surgery you may die waiting FOR YEARS !!

I buy private medical insurance so as to attain immediate medical attention or surgery

but many folk my age just can't afford it being in poor health and unable to work and fully dependant on a pension

brother they WAIT !!!!!

socialism is a wonderful theory but in practise it becomes a lumbering monster and it eventually collapses under the weight of its own bulltwang; and there are always the first among equal folk favoured by the system who suck off of it

just cast around and see where socialism has been extant and note the humourless bureaucracy and the arrogant apparatchiks who operate it

I am compelled to agree with my Cardassian friend, Garak. UHC is better than the free market offerings, at the main - that is lower - level.

I often wonder why the Americans put up with the impost on Employers to pay for health insurance. It robs a singular Peter to take care of many Pauls and poor old Peter has to pay for himself. Better everyone pay the same in a simple manner.

Management of health care is difficult whatever system. In most UHC countries, the beaurocrats are the difficulty. In America it is the Medical Mafia and the Insurance robbers.

I am also astonished at TOO's arguement - made a few posts back. The 'Cold War' wasn't 'Free markets' vs Comminism but Governments of 'capitalist; countries (run by socialist governments quite often) against the communists.

I never hear the Total Free marketers argue for Defence to be provided by Joe Bloggs and Co competing for the Army on a five year contract against Harry Svutzovsky Plc with Carruthers and Assocs running Air Defence for a while until someone else wants a go. The Americans are doing this with Blackthingy and look what a friggin' shambolic cowboy game that is. Hand them a bigger wad of cash and they could easily switch sides !

Read your Catch 22 and Milo Mindebender.

Quote from Percy

I am compelled to agree with my Cardassian friend, Garak. UHC is better than the free market offerings, at the main - that is lower - level.

I often wonder why the Americans put up with the impost on Employers to pay for health insurance. It robs a singular Peter to take care of many Pauls and poor old Peter has to pay for himself. Better everyone pay the same in a simple manner.

Management of health care is difficult whatever system. In most UHC countries, the beaurocrats are the difficulty. In America it is the Medical Mafia and the Insurance robbers.

I am also astonished at TOO's arguement - made a few posts back. The 'Cold War' wasn't 'Free markets' vs Comminism but Governments of 'capitalist; countries (run by socialist governments quite often) against the communists.

I never hear the Total Free marketers argue for Defence to be provided by Joe Bloggs and Co competing for the Army on a five year contract against Harry Svutzovsky Plc with Carruthers and Assocs running Air Defence for a while until someone else wants a go. The Americans are doing this with Blackthingy and look what a friggin' shambolic cowboy game that is. Hand them a bigger wad of cash and they could easily switch sides !

Read your Catch 22 and Milo Mindebender.

Thanks Percy.

Percy, the problem is that the US insurance covers too many things which leads to hospitals having guaranteed consumers, which allows them to raise costs. People should pay out of pocket and have insurance only for emergencies.

And in UHC nobody pays the same. I wouldn't mind that much if the system would be paid per capita, not through progressive taxes. Then all the people who just want a free lunch wouldn't like the system that much anymore.

And the US "medical mafia" is a governmental creation. Oh, and if centralized economies would have been more efficient, the Soviets would have won the Cold War.

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

Percy, the problem is that the US insurance covers too many things which leads to hospitals having guaranteed consumers, which allows them to raise costs. People should pay out of pocket and have insurance only for emergencies.

And in UHC nobody pays the same. I wouldn't mind that much if the system would be paid per capita, not through progressive taxes. Then all the people who just want a free lunch wouldn't like the system that much anymore.

And the US "medical mafia" is a governmental creation. Oh, and if centralized economies would have been more efficient, the Soviets would have won the Cold War.

lol, you're acting like TheOldOligarch with your signatures haha

Quote from Popadibs

lol, you're acting like TheOldOligarch with your signatures haha

You should see TOO's next signatures. lol

Quote from RebelliousVanilla

You should see TOO's next signatures. lol

You mean when he finally beats you chess-wise?

Quote from Feckless

You mean when he finally beats you chess-wise?

He won a game and I won 5, I think. We have a bet now. lol

Quote from Percy

I am compelled to agree with my Cardassian friend, Garak. UHC is better than the free market offerings, at the main - that is lower - level.

I often wonder why the Americans put up with the impost on Employers to pay for health insurance. It robs a singular Peter to take care of many Pauls and poor old Peter has to pay for himself. Better everyone pay the same in a simple manner.

Management of health care is difficult whatever system. In most UHC countries, the beaurocrats are the difficulty. In America it is the Medical Mafia and the Insurance robbers.

I am also astonished at TOO's arguement - made a few posts back. The 'Cold War' wasn't 'Free markets' vs Comminism but Governments of 'capitalist; countries (run by socialist governments quite often) against the communists.

I never hear the Total Free marketers argue for Defence to be provided by Joe Bloggs and Co competing for the Army on a five year contract against Harry Svutzovsky Plc with Carruthers and Assocs running Air Defence for a while until someone else wants a go. The Americans are doing this with Blackthingy and look what a friggin' shambolic cowboy game that is. Hand them a bigger wad of cash and they could easily switch sides !

Read your Catch 22 and Milo Mindebender.

Ok then, perhaps you could answer the question I put to Garak but that he declined to answer; what difference is there between healthcare and other services that results in central planning rather than free market forces being better for healthcare, as opposed to the exact oppsite of that being true for everyhting else?

I really dont get hat you're trying to say about the Cold War, you may remember that it never actually tured into a real war, there wasnt an armed conflict. The collapse of the Soviet Union proved that centrally planned economies are shit, so shit in fact that it doesnt even take outside forces to bring them down, they just collapse under the weight of their own shitness.