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How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

This is a discussion on How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood within the Chit chat (MAIN) anti misandry forums, part of the Introduction to anti misandry category; Turning our backs on Britain's fallen | Mail Online We appreciate our American/Canadian/Commonwealth brothers, but also remember Brits and many ...

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    How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood


    Turning our backs on Britain's fallen | Mail Online

    We appreciate our American/Canadian/Commonwealth brothers, but also remember Brits and many other tribes who sacrificed.

    Then as now, we must remain united no matter what seeks to stir that.

    Turning our backs on Britain's fallen: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won World War Two thanks to Hollywood


    How ironic. Modern Europe totters on the brink of a historic political bust-up, and Britain seems more remote from our partners than ever since the Common Market was created. Yet on Wednesday, Francois Hollande made a gesture of reconciliation with ‘Perfidious Albion’.

    He became the first ever French president to visit a British cemetery in Normandy. In torrential rain, he shook hands with Parachute Regiment veterans at Ranville, where the 6th Airborne Division landed on June 6, 1944.

    If that does not sound significant, remember that throughout the intervening 68 years, French governments have tried not to notice that the British were there on D-Day.

    Most French museums, not to mention school history books, make it sound like the Americans and the Resistance did it all. Millions of French people have seen Hollywood’s D-Day epics; only about six recognise our part.

    But I fear the same is becoming true among our own people. A few weeks ago, I visited the Normandy battlefields in the company of Paul Woodadge, a splendid tour guide who is himself British, but lives near Caen with his French wife. He told me sadly: ‘Most British visitors nowadays know what Steven Spielberg has told them in Saving Private Ryan and Band Of Brothers, so they all want to go to the American sector. Some hardly get to our beaches at all.’.

    Not just 1944, but our entire past, is seen by a new generation through a prism of celluloid myth and legend.

    Our governments set a rotten example by their lack of interest in heritage, real history. Consider this: the centenary is fast approaching of the 1914 outbreak of World War I — one of the two largest and most terrible events in modern European history, which changed or destroyed the lives of millions.

    The French government has allocated cash and effort to a major commemoration, but our own has done nothing.

    In a letter written almost a year ago the Labour peer Lord Faulkner, chairman of the parliamentary war heritage group, urged David Cameron to get moving, first by deciding what we are commemorating: ‘A matter of mourning and regret? Or should we be celebrating victory? . . . The need for action is now urgent.’

    In response, the Prime Minister was polite, but offered nothing. The MoD has no money, and nobody else cares.

    Battlefield guide and photographer Mike Sheil, who attended a meeting at Oxford about the centenary a few months ago, along with World War I historians, says that the Culture Minister present ‘could scarcely bother to be polite’. His Department is interested only in the Olympics and Jeremy Hunt’s future.

    I would like our ministers, and indeed David Cameron, to make the trip I did recently, across the battlefields of France alongside experts who could teach them the meaning of 1914 — a blank screen, it seems, to members of the Bullingdon Club.

    I know quite a lot about our wars. But travelling lately with guides, both in Normandy and eastern France, I have learned more than I would have thought possible about the highways and byways of history — and the debt we owe to those who gave their lives for Britain.

    Because I am writing a book about 1914, I spent five days crossing Belgium and France with Clive Harris — who served in the Royal Signals — and Mike Sheil, who are rated among the best guides in the business. I have seldom found a journey more rewarding. We drove from Mons, where the first British battle of the war was fought on August 23, 1914, through the Ypres Salient where 250,000 British soldiers died, on to the Marne and Aisne, then south to the Vosges mountains where the French army suffered catastrophe.

    From Harris and Sheil on the spot, I learned all sorts of things that are impossible to garner from books.

    I will bet that not many of you have heard of the August 26, 1914, battle of Le Cateau, where three divisions of the British Army under General Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien fought a fierce delaying action against a vastly superior German army.

    There were no trenches, no barbed wire. This was an action amazingly like Waterloo a century earlier.

    The old British county regiments — Yorkshires and Middlesex, Suffolks and Surreys — simply took up positions in golden stubble-fields, supported by horse artillery deployed in plain view, and fought it out with the advancing Germans through a long, hot, bloody day. In 2012, I stood on the ridge outside Le Cateau, looking across ground that is almost completely unchanged.

    My guides talked me through where each regiment stood, and where some died. I thought: this was perhaps the last battle in history where a man could see everything that happened within his own line of sight.

    As the enemy masses came forward, they were mauled and harrowed by devastating rifle fire. ‘It is impossible to miss German infantry,’ wrote 43-year-old Major Bertie Trevor, a company commander in the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. ‘They come on in heaps.’

    Trevor later recalled the battle as: ‘Too terrible for words . . . we fired 350 rounds a man in my company, and did a good deal of execution. But we were in an absolute trap — it is a marvel that anyone there is alive and untouched.

    ‘Until one has been for hours pelted at with shrapnel, machine-guns and rifle fire, one cannot understand war. Where the fun comes in, I don’t know’.

    I stood above Le Cateau thinking of Major Trevor, imagining the spectacle as British horse teams galloped forward in plain view of the Germans, making suicidally brave attempts to save their guns.

    Some succeeded, others fell thrashing to the ground in a terrible jumble of shattered men and animals. August 26, 1914, was a heroic day for the old British army, but cost 7,000 dead and wounded — though the Germans took many more casualties.

    Because today we think of World War I in terms of mud, steel helmets and trenches, it is a revelation to understand how terrible were the first 1914 encounters, which represented a bloody clash between modern and Victorian warfare.

    One day I stood on a ridge outside the eastern French town of Morhange, where less than a month after war began the Germans deployed to meet a French attack armed with 20th-century weapons — artillery and machine-guns.

    Forty-three thousand French troops advanced across the open fields below, in the manner of the 19th century: ‘They came on in their blue coats and red trousers, led by officers on horses with drawn swords, with colours flying and bands playing the Marseillaise’.

    gazed down towards the cemetery where many of those same Frenchmen have lain ever since, slaughtered by remorselessly superior firepower.

    Their commander was a general named Castelnau, 74 years old, who had a custom of reading aloud each morning to his staff the names of officers who had fallen the previous day.

    After the catastrophe at Morhange, his voice faltered for a moment as he spoke the name ‘Castelnau’: his own son, one of the host who had died under his orders. There were other such bizarre confrontations between the old and the new.

    We stopped to look at a memorial in open country some 40 miles north of Paris, commemorating an officer named Gaston de Gironde, a 41-year-old Dragoon. The French cavalry of those days fought in the same breastplates and helmets with horsehair plumes their forefathers wore under Napoleon.

    On September 9, Gironde learned of some German planes parked in a nearby field.

    He and his squadron charged the aircraft on their horses and destroyed them, only for their leader and 11 others to be killed by a machine-gun mounted on a motor car. The Germans carried the mortally wounded officer to a nearby chateau where he died two hours later. His memorial says: ‘He had the qualities of a Christian soldier’.

    The French army suffered 350,000 casualties in August 1914. On some days of that month, its losses were heavier than those of the British on the notorious first day of the Somme in 1916. Now, at least, the French government is preparing to honour those heroes when the centenary of the war comes around.

    Not far from where those French Dragoons perished stands the village of Nery. Never heard of Nery? You should.

    There, on the morning of September 1, 1914, a British cavalry brigade was surprised by German horse artillery, taking advantage of morning fog. As this lifted, L Battery of the Royal Horse Artillery was all but destroyed — horses, men and guns alike — by a hail of shells. But one gun kept firing to the end, and its crew won three VCs.

    Nery’s landscape is today almost unchanged, even unto the huge farmyard where hundreds of British cavalry horses were stabled on September 1.

    Walking the ground, I at once understood how the German guns so quickly devastated L  Battery, which was harnessed to march off, like King’s Troop at a modern parade.

    I could see where the British later staged a dashing counter-attack, causing the morning to end in a German defeat. Being there offered a sense of drama, understanding and empathy that could never be found in a book.

    Men like Clive Harris and Mike Sheil match their vivid words and anecdotes to maps and photos, bringing the past to life in a profoundly moving fashion.

    No wonder they are almost disbelieving that the British government is so eager to wash its hands of the coming 1914 centenary — the French, by contrast, are staging a prominent Paris exhibition of Sheil’s battlefield photographs.

    You may remember that a few years ago, David Cameron’s predecessor showed no interest in the 65th anniversary of D-Day, until huge American and French commitments to the occasion shamed us into turning up at the last minute.

    As 2014 approaches, a responsible British government would recognise its duty to find the money — not very much — and the political commitment to mark the occasion in a fashion worthy of the millions who fought and died, whose lives were shaped or ended by it.

    We should learn to value our heritage, as French governments cherish theirs. The Continent today is threatened not by war, but by greater turmoil and dissension than it has known for half a century.

    Only by knowing and understanding its past history, and our part in it, can we hope to come to terms with its present and future.
    It's not just British troops being left out where they've bled the soil, what about the Aussie and Kiwi troops, and other commonwealth troops? They equally gifted our freedom.
    Last edited by Celtic Druid; 10th-June-2012 at 05:16 PM.
    The wicked flee when none pursueth. Proverbs 28:1

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    It is not the soldiers who are evil - it is the governments. Respect those who do battle on our behalf.
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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Quote Quote from FloatyBoaty View Post
    It is not the soldiers who are evil - it is the governments. Respect those who do battle on our behalf.
    Indeed, one expresses displeasure not at the everyday folk, but the system that evaluates and underpins our fragile and limited existence.
    The wicked flee when none pursueth. Proverbs 28:1

    'Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number - Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you - Ye are many - they are few.'

    Percy Bysshe Shelley

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "
    Thomas Jefferson

    The internet has been a lifeboat for men's opposition to the floodings of feminism.
    Celtic Druid

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    certainly without the strong assistance of the USA Hitler would have won the war - he had his boffins developing the atomic bomb

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Quote Quote from shaazam View Post
    certainly without the strong assistance of the USA Hitler would have won the war - he had his boffins developing the atomic bomb
    And lots of other things too.
    Our society puts a premium on beauty; common in declining cultures.
    Get'm young enough, and the possibilities are endless. -- Unleashed: Danny the Dog

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace on earth: I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. - Matthew 10:34

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Quote Quote from shaazam View Post
    certainly without the strong assistance of the USA Hitler would have won the war - he had his boffins developing the atomic bomb
    You are depressingly correct through my reading, not only did American companies profit from the war, but they actually benefited by pushing a war-theme.

    I absolutely know the 'consideration' about things have changed, but by how much?

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Quote Quote from Unregistered View Post
    You are depressingly correct through my reading, not only did American companies profit from the war, but they actually benefited by pushing a war-theme.

    I absolutely know the 'consideration' about things have changed, but by how much?
    Shouldn't such companies not only be exposed but pay severe reparations as a starting moral point?

    Certainly, I get annoyed at the emphasis on blame being directed at the individual, when it's more correctly aimed at the system which controls everything.

    And those who promoted war, executed!

    And justice is never too old to be enacted. There has to be a universal understanding that immorality will be punished at some point. If you inflict fear or violence upon another innocent human being you must be hunted down and made to pay for your actions. This must equally apply to the individual as it does an organization, politician or nobility. Let common law be inclusive of all!
    Last edited by Celtic Druid; 10th-June-2012 at 05:29 PM.
    The wicked flee when none pursueth. Proverbs 28:1

    'Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number - Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you - Ye are many - they are few.'

    Percy Bysshe Shelley

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "
    Thomas Jefferson

    The internet has been a lifeboat for men's opposition to the floodings of feminism.
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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    not only did American companies profit from the war, but they actually benefited by pushing a war-theme.

    antimisandry.com How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood
    In my University programs, for personal education 'attendances' as well as degree courses, I studied war. I became very aware of the great social advances made due to the two world wars in particular, and the roles of 'business' in not only creating 'product' and opportunity but taking the fruits to society afterwards. I am not especially upset by 'profit' from war although the one-sidedness in the International sense is still a rankle. It is the Government attitude that disturbs me most and the fact that Britain was paying America for their 'help' until 2006. Freinds helping one another do not usually give Invoices and 'demands for payment, or else' after.

    Hollywood as an engine of myth has always done its job well, extolling American heroism, and Americans can take some pride in the real achievements of its troops during both wars, without having to rely on the outright fictions and lies on the silver screen.

    But to me these matters are secondary.

    The primary matter is the huge numbers of good men (on all sides) who died in miserable conditions, often in agony, for a society that now no longer cares.

    Just look in horror at the sheer waste. The numbers of men.

    Ypres: 250,000. That is 25 (roman) legions-worth and their auxilliaries wiped out. Cannae is still talked about with its 100,000 romans, 8 legions, the largest force ever assembled for one battle, crushed by Hannibal, 2000 years ago. Do we still talk about Ypres after 100 years?

    The Somme. Does anyone these days bow sombre heads and weep - as I do - for the 20,000 young men killed on the first day: an opening chorus of agony to be followed by 120,000 more in the 30 days that followed. These were mostly young men, some still boys. Few of them had the vote, and yet all we hear about that era today is women's voting 'rights'.

    Just two battles from hundreds.

    Until one has been for hours pelted at with shrapnel, machine-guns and rifle fire, one cannot understand war. Where the fun comes in, I don’t know’.

    antimisandry.com How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood
    I have had a fortunate career in the military. No shrapnel came my way. No heavy machine gun fire. Just a few occasions of fire from modest arms carried by foreign 'enemy' boys similar in age to me, and over whose bodies my mind still gazes- and yes, again with tears of personal remorse mixed in with that sense of waste. I took Honour away from those encounters, but where is it now?

    Added after 7 minutes:

    In all my years I have never attended a 'Rememberance' ceremony. I sit at home and weep.
    Last edited by Percy; 11th-June-2012 at 02:31 AM. Reason: content auto merged

    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
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    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
    against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. “
    (and within ourselves)
    (Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)

    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious.
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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Great Bitian - yes it was Great once - lost over one MILLION men in WW1, and nearly a million more in WW2. Two million more were maimed, scarred, burned, disabled. They lost legs and lungs and returned home with terrible traumas in their souls that today are out-classed by rude words and 'abuse' decreed as such by feminists. The 'shape' of British society was changed dramatically. At the time of WW1 Britain had some 10 million men of 'marriageable' age. One third were removed from any procreation opportunity.

    The effect on women of this double-whammy of lost marriage opportunity, lost family future, lost opportunity to live off a man's labour, was immense and is felt today. Not in terms of gratitude for men's sacrifice in fire, but as neuroticism and psychosis on a societal scale. Women went mad, not from grief at the pain their men suffered, but at their own loss of opportunity to be 'taken care of'. It is the main driver of the modern 'Entitlement' curse that puts Emma Bovary in the shade.

    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
    Love the Sinner but not the Sin.
    (St. Augustine)

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
    against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. “
    (and within ourselves)
    (Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)

    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious.
    If you meet one on the road as you Go your Own Way,
    offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.
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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    From what I've learned of WWII, Great Britain won the "air war" simply because the Royal Air Force existed. However, the U.S. came in only when the Allied forces had cut down most of the Axis forces.
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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    To be fair, WW2 simply could not of been won without the U.S, saying that though, they obviously weren't the only ones who contributed to victory, I think the most under appreciated of all has to be Russia more than anyone, no other country on the face of this planet would of accepted even half the losses Russia took. Any other country would of simply folded.

    The Allied Forces really do owe the USA a lot of thanks for winning that war but that doesn't take away their contribution to securing the victory, it's merely acknowledging that without the help of the Americans, Hitler would of conquered Europe eventually.

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Quote Quote from Percy View Post
    The Somme. Does anyone these days bow sombre heads and weep - as I do - for the 20,000 young men killed on the first day: an opening chorus of agony to be followed by 120,000 more in the 30 days that followed. These were mostly young men, some still boys. Few of them had the vote, and yet all we hear about that era today is women's voting 'rights'.
    Percy, whenever I hear about feminists complain about the right to vote (apart from 200+ suffragette acts of treason, arson, vandalism and terrorism between 1913-14) I always think about the tens of thousands of brave British soldiers who went 'over the top' on the first morning of WW1 and didn't come back.

    The majority, bar the officers, didn't have the right to vote. But did any of them to a man, refuse to fight for king and country because they didn't have the right to vote? Bugger no, they carried on because they'd be shamed otherwise and more so, they sacrificed so that their wives and children didn't have too.

    So understandably, I get a little tetchy when I hear feminists droning on about the vote. They really have no idea! I'd like to drag every single one of them to the WW1 battlefield graveyards of Europe and point out millions of young men who died without a right to vote.
    Last edited by Celtic Druid; 14th-June-2012 at 08:06 AM.
    The wicked flee when none pursueth. Proverbs 28:1

    'Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number - Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you - Ye are many - they are few.'

    Percy Bysshe Shelley

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "
    Thomas Jefferson

    The internet has been a lifeboat for men's opposition to the floodings of feminism.
    Celtic Druid

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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    The Allied Forces really do owe the USA a lot of thanks for winning that war but that doesn't take away their contribution to securing the victory, it's merely acknowledging that without the help of the Americans, Hitler would of (sic. 'have') conquered Europe eventually
    Granted, but nonetheless it can be overstated and more often than not it is. And Hitler DID conquor Europe. It was Britain alone he did not conquor and as a British Gentleman I can clearly and unequivocally state that Britain has never been part of Europe. (Until very recently through the spinlessness of modern politicians)

    Many, many nations gathered to counter the Nazis. They came from all over the Commonwealth. The Americans came too, after a while.

    But let us face the One Fact that puts Britain at the top of the list for effecting victory. It stood alone; it maintained its defence of the Island. Everyone else in Europe had capitulated or scurried under their neutrality rocks. Had it not done this, there could have been no massing of forces for re-taking Europe. Britain was an 'Aircraft Carrier'. America could not reach Europe without having a safe place to mass their troops and neither could the Commonwealth countries.

    The Allies all deserve thanks. The Russians lost a huge number, from a huge population. It is questionable however, just how many of the Russian losses were at Russian hands. America had the next largest population from which to draw troops. They lost fewer numbers than the British who had a far smaller population. The biggest 'proportional' losses were British.
    Last edited by Percy; 14th-June-2012 at 04:05 PM.

    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
    Love the Sinner but not the Sin.
    (St. Augustine)

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
    against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. “
    (and within ourselves)
    (Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)

    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious.
    If you meet one on the road as you Go your Own Way,
    offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.
    (Me)





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    Re: How a new generation believes it was just U.S. troops that won WW2 thanks to Hollywood

    Quote Quote from Celtic Druid View Post
    Percy, whenever I hear about feminists complain about the right to vote (apart from 200+ suffragette acts of treason, arson, vandalism and terrorism between 1913-14) I always think about the tens of thousands of brave British soldiers who went 'over the top' on the first morning of WW1 and didn't come back.

    The majority, bar the officers, didn't have the right to vote. But did any of them to a man, refuse to fight for king and country because they didn't have the right to vote? Bugger no, they carried on because they'd be shamed otherwise and more so, they sacrificed so that their wives and children didn't have too.

    So understandably, I get a little tetchy when I hear feminists droning on about the vote. They really have no idea! I'd like to drag every single one of them to the WW1 battlefield graveyards of Europe and point out millions of young men who died without a right to vote.
    You should remind them of this often.
    Our society puts a premium on beauty; common in declining cultures.
    Get'm young enough, and the possibilities are endless. -- Unleashed: Danny the Dog


 

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