Father's Rights and it's challenges

**julie** · 21st-August-2012

Last night I picked up a fax machine from a woman who wanted to donate it.

She works in "Emergency Housing" and told me of her day and how an emergency state home was being given to immigrants and how the man asked, "Where's the 2nd room for eating?" for in his culture, men and women do not eat in the same room.

Somehow we got on to feminism and to my astonishment she was regretting it as an older lady. She said she made her husband help with cooking and caring for their 4 children and he told her many years later that those actions cost him his masculinity. Because she loves her husband as her best friend, she feels bad.

..............

But then I, (yes terrible me, lol), said, "It seems to me, feminism was radical because the men who were anti them were radical". I myself am extremely angry at men who think women and children evolve around men and fight for this.... because, they are serious naive to the lowest denominator. IMO, no human being has the right to expect other human beings to serve them - slavery is over including the right to sell another human being, the right to expect a child to give up their life to care for you, and the right to expect to be exonerated of all abuse because 'it's all about you'.

...............

This lady hadn't considered these factors, of course, for that wasn't HER feminism. She is feeling sorry for the immigrant men for she is relating it back to her husband who was expected to act as feminists wanted in a time when men didn't do these things. That was his era, and sure he would have copped slack from other men.... perhaps a major joke and considered a traitor.

..............

Moving on to the next generation......

Many fathers today walk the streets pushing strollers and have babies in what looks like a backpack. Many dads are at playgroup, kid's birthday parties and making their presence felt at playgrounds that are nearly always vacant when fathers are not around.

Educated men and women are sharing the load as they strive for personal family goals and together provide financial contribution. Yet I know many men in this class are leaving their wives for a "Damsel in distress" for men have psychological needs. (as woman)

Anyways, many dads love the idea of knowing their children and sharing first steps, etc.

.............

BUT..... many, many dads are different. Psychologists have their own international meetups where they share information to teach students, provide information to governments, continue research and design programs and other care to assist society. They have always been hurt by the father's movement because they feel the men aren't understanding that there are many outliers to their wants.

............

Those outliers are other fathers. For instance, some cultures believe fathers don't interact with children until they are 7 years of age. Some cultures believe child raising is a woman's job (without pay, lol). Some cultures this and that and that and this.

Here's an interesting case. Mum told the family court dad had sexually abused their daughter. Turns out mum is Russian and dad is Kiwi (New Zealand). Turns out in Russia, a man who bounces a child on his knee is being sexually aroused, thus is sexually abusing a child. Turns out this kiwi dad didn't know that and bounced his little girl on his knee for fun. (gosh, I have done that, lol).

............

Anyways, heaps of men, and I mean the mentally ill, - in soooo many ways, the spoilt man/boy, the immigrants and so on and so on are not what one would call, "father quality'. They really aren't and so to provide father's rights, the world needs to make all men become fathers.

This is the struggle society is faced when divided into groups for the lowest denominator is where the group goes.

............

My group which cares for all single mothers and fathers has a mission statement like all others and ours is to build a national network of single parents so they can be a community and aid each other. It is practical under any governance and is needed while we play with experiment after experiment, right after right, etc, etc. It's is a network leading our anti class system of vertical systems back to a better horizontal system and is made up of parents who both provide and nurture children as sole parents. It's both innovative and caring for social needs of today. Heck, it's going to be around for some time while children's role models are people like the Kardashians. (not to be confused with Cardassians, lol).

.............

It's easy for me to put forward great dads. And boy oh boy, do they have stories to tell.

But they don't represent the father's movement. In fact , they are a small part of separated fathers and unique for you won't attend the many camps (snow trips, farm experiences - horse and motorbike riding, etc, etc) that we get funding for if you are not child focused.

.............

But then, we have made the effort to care about the father's movement and have attended many community and government department meetings on father's behalf and with awesome fathers. We have made presentations that has caused great community movement for fathers.

Yet, all comes down to men being hands on fathers who put children's needs before other things.

............

Pussy power is not something I want to get into for I get that men are different to other men. But once again, it comes down to the lowest denominator. How to you get all men to think women's vaginas have power? And how to you get women to say, "Yep, we have power because we have pussy?"

.............

My point is...... if we can't fix the lowest denominator that determines all our groups, how do we make a better world? I assume the best way is to keep most of those who are not at all involved in any bad behaviour out of the question for starters, and then look at the medium and then who actually belongs in the problem area.

This is what New Zealand is experimenting with- it's government's new proposes to the family court system. There is now 3 roads. One for serious cases, one for normal easy cases (without lawyers) and another for those who have money and power.

**Rof L Mao Esq** · 21st-August-2012

Julie, I can't always follow what you write, mostly the different cultural contexts in play making it hard to summon images for what you talk about. And, I don't always agree with the conclusions you come to. But I have followed your contributions for some time, and while I can't even always appreciate the things you say and may not even mean when you make your generalizations about men, I cannot help but notice your basic compassion and persistence, and just want you to know I appreciate your presence here.

You take a lot of heat from many of the men here, and in reading through some of the really long discussions around your posts, it looks like a lot of this pushback on you is taken right out of the radfem playbook: read your work not looking for meaning or underlying intent, but instead catch you in a phrase or an assertion that does not square with the "MRM" party line, and then attack you below the belt for expressing yourself incorrectly. I have certainly been disappointed by some of the things you yourself say, but applaud you for trying to adapt to a very complex set of issues without surrendering to your anger or a temptation to denounce and ridicule, in an environment where too many cannot seem to rise even to a standard of basic adult tact.

There are some here who could learn from your example, and now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go get the padding on for the beating I know I'm about to take.

**julie** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

Julie,............

I am sorry if I offend by just quoting Julie...... I mean to show I read all of what you wrote.

I am not sure what is appropriate to say back to you. I 'Thank you' very much for starters. But then, I am humbling embarrassed and sorry too.

I wish I could give in a good way.

Thank you again.

May I ask your thoughts. Please.

Please focus on the part where I ask for your input.

**Rof L Mao Esq** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from julie

I am sorry if I offend by just quoting Julie...... I mean to show I read all of what you wrote.

I am not sure what is appropriate to say back to you. I 'Thank you' very much for starters. But then, I am humbling embarrassed and sorry too.

I wish I could give in a good way.

Thank you again.

May I ask your thoughts. Please.

Please focus on the part where I ask for your input.

Nothing to apologize for, ma'am, and that's my whole point.

No one on this site is in a position to really critique what you do in your everyday real life, and the only criticism I have, and it's a friendly one, is you tend to ramble from your theme in a way that leaves you vulnerable to the attacks that seem to be just lying in wait for anyone sayng anything that offends certain prejudicial sensibilities. And this is the precise reason why, while not exactly defending you (wouldn't want to accused of being a "white knight", after all) I am applauding you.

It is often tempting in any setting where the offered opportunity is to "speak freely" or "have an open mind", to pounce on anyone whose free-speaking open-mindedness does not adhere to in-house prejudices, and I myself probably succumb to that as well as anyone else. In fact, these invitations, as I know you must know, are often the tactics of abuse: just tell me what you're thinking, sweetheart, so we can talk about it,

then follow the beatings and the shouting and the "how can you even think that" accusations. Again, my only criticism is that you keep walking right into it, and I'd like to see you take an even stronger stand sometimes so that your hesitancy doesn't make you a target. Somebody thinks you're wrong, fine, but you have NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR, especially in advance.

Opposition to feminist doctrine is not a license to denounce women at the drop of a hat. In fact, it is that precise trait in institutional and personal misandry that I despise most about feminist dogma for promoting.

If we can't do better, we are no better.

I have a daughter of seven, and already I am working with her about thinking she has to apologize to people who may pick on her, for thinking she has given them reason to. This is childhood, innocent, low-level stuff, but if she does not outgrow this I worry about her defending her place in an essentially vicious world. We work at it together, and she is learning that having a good heart and wanting people to like her doesn't mean she has to just put up with all the shit she doesn't deserve.

Did anyone ever do that for you as a little girl?

**KellyMac** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

Julie, I can't always follow what you write, mostly the different cultural contexts in play making it hard to summon images for what you talk about. And, I don't always agree with the conclusions you come to. But I have followed your contributions for some time, and while I can't even always appreciate the things you say and may not even mean when you make your generalizations about men, I cannot help but notice your basic compassion and persistence, and just want you to know I appreciate your presence here.

You take a lot of heat from many of the men here, and in reading through some of the really long discussions around your posts, it looks like a lot of this pushback on you is taken right out of the radfem playbook: read your work not looking for meaning or underlying intent, but instead catch you in a phrase or an assertion that does not square with the "MRM" party line, and then attack you below the belt for expressing yourself incorrectly. I have certainly been disappointed by some of the things you yourself say, but applaud you for trying to adapt to a very complex set of issues without surrendering to your anger or a temptation to denounce and ridicule, in an environment where too many cannot seem to rise even to a standard of basic adult tact.

There are some here who could learn from your example, and now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go get the padding on for the beating I know I'm about to take.

Repeated for emphasis.

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

Did anyone ever do that for you as a little girl?

Sure as hell no one ever did it for me. Life would have turned out sooo differently if they had. I applaud you, sir.

Julie, I have no idea what the answer is. I think your group is on the right track, and I sincerely wish there were more groups that advocated for everyone instead of just for whom it is currently fashionable to advocate. I'm not sure more government is the answer, but I think it's worth looking at. At least they're thinking about it.

**julie** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

Nothing to apologize for, ma'am, and that's my whole point.

Thank you Sir.

No one on this site is in a position to really critique what you do in your everyday real life, and the only criticism I have, and it's a friendly one, is you tend to ramble from your theme in a way that leaves you vulnerable to the attacks that seem to be just lying in wait for anyone sayng anything that offends certain prejudicial sensibilities. And this is the precise reason why, while not exactly defending you (wouldn't want to accused of being a "white knight", after all) I am applauding you.

Oh, gosh... I want to find a win/win in this. With beautiful respect to you, I don't think you can understand the relationship I have with the men on this site. I adore the men who were here when I started. I dream of winning lotto and surprising them, lol cause I treasure them more than they even know.
But the new ones, well, I am being ignorant and just caring about offline.

I would love your input.

**Popadibs** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

Julie, I can't always follow what you write, mostly the different cultural contexts in play making it hard to summon images for what you talk about. And, I don't always agree with the conclusions you come to. But I have followed your contributions for some time, and while I can't even always appreciate the things you say and may not even mean when you make your generalizations about men, I cannot help but notice your basic compassion and persistence, and just want you to know I appreciate your presence here.

You take a lot of heat from many of the men here, and in reading through some of the really long discussions around your posts, it looks like a lot of this pushback on you is taken right out of the radfem playbook: read your work not looking for meaning or underlying intent, but instead catch you in a phrase or an assertion that does not square with the "MRM" party line, and then attack you below the belt for expressing yourself incorrectly. I have certainly been disappointed by some of the things you yourself say, but applaud you for trying to adapt to a very complex set of issues without surrendering to your anger or a temptation to denounce and ridicule, in an environment where too many cannot seem to rise even to a standard of basic adult tact.

There are some here who could learn from your example, and now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go get the padding on for the beating I know I'm about to take.

Most of us will not beat on down trodden men. That is not what we are here for. We are also not here to moralize and to demonize young men for their legitimate anger in the face of injustice aimed their way. Leave that to the feminist minded women whom some men foolishly cater to. Leave that to the men who believe that their outrage is somehow better than the outrage of these young men, that is, if these men have any outrage at all.

A lot of men are angry because of some of the things (e.g. fathers losing access, husbands/fathers forced out of homes, etc.) that happened to other men. Yes, there is that factor that "this could happen to you" but it's a start. It's a start because men are starting to show concern for other men besides themselves. It isn't the norm for men to care about other men's negative experiences. A lot of men in their past assisted in sabotaging their lives by trusting untrustworthy women. If those men wanted to mortgage their own futures, that's fine, but we will not allow those men to mortgage our future as well because of their naivety.

I understand that certain members don't want to make female members feel uncomfortable but the way to win over women allies isn't to ward male allies, who are rightfully angry, off neither. If given the choice of an ally between an angry man, who's tired of misandry, and a self admitted feminist, I will choose the angry man each and every time. I wonder how many people, who blame men for being angry at their own plight, would blame these same angry men and angry women if they were angry about a woman being raped, beaten or mistreated.

**julie** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Popadibs

Most of us will not beat on down trodden men.

Oh, how funnee can funnee be.

If I'd only known you have at go at the guy.

That's it. I am too good for this, but I hope elder men care for you more than they do women your age, lol.

**Rof L Mao Esq** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Popadibs

Most of us will not beat on down trodden men. That is not what we are here for. We are also not here to moralize and to demonize young men for their legitimate anger in the face of injustice aimed their way. Leave that to the feminist minded women whom some men foolishly cater to. Leave that to the men who believe that their outrage is somehow better than the outrage of these young men, that is, if these men have any outrage at all.

A lot of men are angry because of some of the things (e.g. fathers losing access, husbands/fathers forced out of homes, etc.) that happened to other men. Yes, there is that factor that "this could happen to you" but it's a start. It's a start because men are starting to show concern for other men besides themselves. It isn't the norm for men to care about other men's negative experiences. A lot of men in their past assisted in sabotaging their lives by trusting untrustworthy women. If those men wanted to mortgage their own futures, that's fine, but we will not allow those men to mortgage our future as well because of their naivety.

I understand that certain members don't want to make female members feel uncomfortable but the way to win over women allies isn't to ward male allies, who are rightfully angry, off neither. If given the choice of an ally between an angry man, who's tired of misandry, and a self admitted feminist, I will choose the angry man each and every time. I wonder how many people, who blame men for being angry at their own plight, would blame these same angry men and angry women if they were angry about a woman being raped, beaten or mistreated.

If you want me to go into the list of justifiable reasons for me to be angry as a man and father, give me a few days, and a delivery address, and I'll FedEx you several volumes.

If you want me to outline for you all the good outcomes I expect to get by investing my anger into blustering, alienating and accusing activities that any grownup already knows won't achieve a good result, hand me a 1/4" x 1/4" piece of paper and I'll hand to back to you blank.

What frustrates me on this site in recent days is that I know all these adults here already KNOW that what I am saying is true on this subject, and they just go off like twelve-year-olds anyway.

I'm beginning to wonder, do some of us just want to live in a gender-segregated, suspicion-filled, abusive world, and so keep playing to those spiritual urges in others?

There is grave risk in building too much of one's identity on moral outrage for one simple, scary reason:

Who would we be if it gets better? Would we even be qualified for a reality that is an improvement on the one we struggle against?

**Popadibs** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from julie

Oh, how funnee can funnee be.

If I'd only known you have at go at the guy.

That's it. I am too good for this, but I hope elder men care for you more than they do women your age, lol.

We can learn a lot from our elders, including from our elders' mistakes. Even if older men don't care about younger men's futures it doesn't mean that we have to be careless about our son's futures. We don't have to continue this cycle. The government be damned; it won't end this cycle, feminism won't end this cycle and I don't even know if the men's movement will end this cycle (although, it could enlighten men that this cycle needs to be ended).

**Raven01** · 21st-August-2012

Anyways, heaps of men, and I mean the mentally ill, - in soooo many ways, the spoilt man/boy, the immigrants and so on and so on are not what one would call, "father quality'. They really aren't and so to provide father's rights, the world needs to make all men become fathers.

Then, close your effing legs or atleast use reliable birth control as the ONLY person in a sexual relationship with such choices it becomes your responsibility. EDIT: Either can choose to not have sex but that is unrealistic however, being the person with a myriad of options should pregnancy result while the other individual has no choices makes the responsibility to the potential child 100% yours. Including the selection of an appropriate father.

But they don't represent the father's movement. In fact , they are a small part of separated fathers and unique for you won't attend the many camps (snow trips, farm experiences - horse and motorbike riding, etc, etc) that we get funding for if you are not child focused.

54% divorce rate with 80% custody awards to mothers due to outdated parenting concepts. And, the silence from the feminist camp on this clear discrimination is deafening. In fact, feminist organizations still fight tooth and nail to prevent PAS from being officially recognised. Not because women are more prone to commit this abuse than men statistically but, because with 80% of custody awards in women's favour they will mathematically make up the larger group of perpetrators. Acknowledging the existence of PAS would force a shift in custody awards that might actually consider what really is best for a child for a change instead of using the faulty assumption that what is best for mommy must be best for the child.

**Popadibs** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

If you want me to go into the list of justifiable reasons for me to be angry as a man and father, give me a few days, and a delivery address, and I'll FedEx you several volumes.

If you want me to outline for you all the good outcomes I expect to get by investing my anger into blustering, alienating and accusing activities that any grownup already knows won't achieve a good result, hand me a 1/4" x 1/4" piece of paper and I'll hand to back to you blank.

I will not blame men for "alienating" women who lie on them, get them kicked out of their homes, block access to their children, etc.

Granted, you may be talking about us alienating allies but not everyone who smiles in your face is a friend and not everyone who congratulates you wants you to succeed.

How do we solve the problems without acknowledging the problems? How do we acknowledge the problem without addressing the source of the problem? How do we address the source of the problem without addressing many women's roles in these problems?

What have you done differently and what do you have to show for it?

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

What frustrates me on this site in recent days is that I know all these adults here already KNOW that what I am saying is true on this subject, and they just go off like twelve-year-olds anyway.

You are suggesting that we shouldn't be partial against women, right? Are you being impartial right now?

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

I'm beginning to wonder, do some of us just want to live in a gender-segregated, suspicion-filled, abusive world, and so keep playing to those spiritual urges in others?

Worldwide: _ only gyms, _ only parking lots, _ only subways, _ only cities, etc. (can you fill in the _?)

Which of us wants these things?

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

There is grave risk in building too much of one's identity on moral outrage for one simple, scary reason:

Who would we be if it gets better? Would we even be qualified for a reality that is an improvement on the one we struggle against?

I've actually thought about this too. I don't think I'd be able to change my opinion unless I saw something compelling to me to do so. Of course, what difference will it make if I'm an old timer by then?

Before wondering "what if", however, we should wonder "when will" and before that "how so".

Quote from Raven01

Not because women are more prone to commit this abuse than men statistically but, because with 80% of custody awards in women's favour they will mathematically make up the larger group of perpetrators. Acknowledging the existence of PAS would force a shift in custody awards that might actually consider what really is best for a child for a change instead of using the faulty assumption that what is best for mommy must be best for the child.

Do you think women are less prone to commit abuse against children than against other women?

**Rof L Mao Esq** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Raven01

Then, close your effing legs or atleast use reliable birth control as the ONLY person in a sexual relationship with such choices it becomes your responsibility. EDIT: Either can choose to not have sex but that is unrealistic however, being the person with a myriad of options should pregnancy result while the other individual has no choices makes the responsibility to the potential child 100% yours. Including the selection of an appropriate father.

54% divorce rate with 80% custody awards to mothers due to outdated parenting concepts. And, the silence from the feminist camp on this clear discrimination is deafening. In fact, feminist organizations still fight tooth and nail to prevent PAS from being officially recognised. Not because women are more prone to commit this abuse than men statistically but, because with 80% of custody awards in women's favour they will mathematically make up the larger group of perpetrators. Acknowledging the existence of PAS would force a shift in custody awards that might actually consider what really is best for a child for a change instead of using the faulty assumption that what is best for mommy must be best for the child.

Another huge hole in the custody laws, at least in the US, is that it is euphemistically called "child support", when it really was designed to be "ex-wife support". Why is it that no state requires recipients to invoice their disbursements of child-support income to corroborate that they spent it on a child? Food Stamp laws are stricter than that...

**Popadibs** · 21st-August-2012

Quote from Rof L Mao Esq

Another huge hole in the custody laws, at least in the US, is that it is euphemistically called "child support", when it really was designed to be "ex-wife support". Why is it that no state requires recipients to invoice their disbursements of child-support income to corroborate that they spent it on a child? Food Stamp laws are stricter than that...

This highlights the reason I initially have a hard time trusting women who claim to support us. I'm not saying 0 women support us but I'm saying what woman would really want to work with men to help put an end to this when she is far more likely to benefit from this than to lose from this?

I mean, generally, women are self interested, look at their voting habits and watch those political discussions on tv and what do women do? They make it about women's issues (even if it affects men detrimentally as well). Why would we blindly accept that members of that political class would want to help us in order to lose out on those things? What do women have to gain from helping men? Does women's track record indicate that most of them would really be this selfless for men?

Bottom line: Are women willing to lose out on their privileges over men in order for things to be more fair to men, privileges that they've lobbied for, protested for and have enjoyed for years? Are they really willing to work with us against other women, which would be inevitable, if they helped us?

**Raven01** · 21st-August-2012

Do you think women are less prone to commit abuse against children than against other women?

I have almost no stance on female on female violence, other than it disgusts me. But, no more than male on male, male on female, female on male or, X race on Y race.
The difference being that female on child the violence or other mental abuse is too often excused.
If it is wrong for a guy to do it then all things being equal it should also cause the same moral outrage when a woman does the same thing.

I have no studies on hand to make a proper response as to which violence (woman on child or woman on woman) is more prevalent but, as an educated guess I would assume that woman on child exceeds woman on woman. My reasoning is based on an assumption that the majority of abusers are bullies. And, bullies generally seek out submissive, "easy" targets and, who is more submissive and controllable than a child?
It applies equally to any men that engage in PAS behaviour. Male or female they are sickening bullies.

I hate to admit it but, I used to be a male feminist. Right up until I asked questions and, looked beyond the lies of "We just want equality". If everyone male or female were given a fair shake in family law, criminal law, education, health care, etc. today I would cease being an MRA tomorrow.

I don't hate women as Manboobz claims, quite the opposite in fact. Only a very few women are worth the time of day in our current society though. And, while not hating women I fucking despise feminists for the lying, deceitful, self-centered scum they are.