Thread: Do MRA's analyze themselves (their own actions, behavior) as much as they do women's?

Quote from Glitz

I agree. Anti-women does no service as it makes MRAs look like cranks and looneys. The fact is, some guys who have lost everything in divorce simply because they are men are going to struggle not to blaime all women, a few will succumb to that anger, thats human nature. Unless the board becomes totally censored there is not much you can do about it other than ignore it, try to change it (unlikley TBH) or walk away.

There are plenty of women who do not hate men, who take responsibility for themselves and who pull their weight. There are loads and if they come on here it might help to sway some fence sitters that women are not some lost cause and they are not at all 'all bad'.

So if your one of these (And i think you are likely to be) then its good that your here, but yes, there are gonna be some people who will never change their opinions of womankind. Its sad but true. It doesnt mean your time here is wasted

That makes a whole lot of sense. Thank you.

Quote from TERA

So do you think misogyny or anti-female sentiment helps or hurts the MRA movement?

I think loss of free speech hurts MRA's. Shall we allow people like you to dictate to us what is and is not ok to say? No thanks, many MRA's hate political correctness as it prevents mens rights subjects from even being discussed.

As far as anti-female sentiment, well, let's just say that when men fight for equal custody and women fight for sole custody it shows women to be selfish and that is just an example. Shall we get into the centuries of men protecting and providing for women and children?

Here's the problem, you want us to buy into the "men and women are the same" nonsense. We aren't!

Quote from TERA

I don't think it's an exaggeration.

And you may be right...maybe it would be a huge shock to try being a man for a day. You might find that being a woman really isn't that much fun, either, despite the privileges women generally seem to have. I know it's probably hard for you to believe, but it's the truth.

Feminism has made life miserable for men and women, point your finger at them Tera, not at us.

Quote from Garak

Women have come in and destroyed everything we have built, education, religion, law, the workforce, etc... There is no way in hell I will willingly let them tell me how an MRA should act.

Tera wants us all to be homosexual loving self hating guys, isn't that what got us here in the first fucking place!

Garak... I'm not trying to destroy anything you have worked for. I'm not telling you to hate yourself, to be homosexual, or how to act. That's way over the top.

All I did is suggest that men be willing to look as closely at themselves as they do women, and I also stated that I think men who are anti-female hurt the MRA movement rather than help it.

While you are passionate about not being told what to do or how to behave, I'm quite passionate about not being blamed for things I didn't do. It's quite enough to carry the guilt for things I actually have done, without adding to it this: "Women have come in and destroyed everything we have built, education, religion, law, the workforce, etc... and similar such things."

What it sounds like to me is that you present a one-sided argument here. Actually, it doesn't really sound like an argument at all, it sounds like a statement. If all of these things are destroyed, you think that only women had a hand in that? Are you willing to look any deeper and see any other factors here? Or is it just easier to look no further?

Quote from TERA

Garak... I'm not trying to destroy anything you have worked for. I'm not telling you to hate yourself, to be homosexual, or how to act. That's way over the top.

All I did is suggest that men be willing to look as closely at themselves as they do women, and I also stated that I think men who are anti-female hurt the MRA movement rather than help it.

Tera, you want us to look at ourselves and to determine if we are up to YOUR standards. Between this and your homosexuality thread it is obvious that you think we should all be tolerant of homosexuals and women no matter what. Fuck that!

Some men are angry at women and they have every right to be. How dare you come here and lecture us while you sit back and watch the feminists run wild.

Some of us judge women by the actions of the majority and the actions of the majority show women to be just fine with injustice so long as it benefits them. For example, the family courts, do I really need to elaborate?

Quote from Garak

Feminism has made life miserable for men and women, point your finger at them Tera, not at us.

Garak,

As much as you think I'm trying to blame you for something, the truth is, I'm passionate about the success of the MRA movement. I'm passionate about seeing it gain public support. I'm passionate about it achieving its goals. I think long and hard about how we can go about that. I guess I'm one who thinks that it probably isn't beneficial to become as biased and hateful as the feminists are. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out misandry where it exists. I think we need to. I think the same way about misogyny.

What it sounds like to me is that you present a one-sided argument here. Actually, it doesn't really sound like an argument at all, it sounds like a statement. If all of these things are destroyed, you think that only women had a hand in that? Are you willing to look any deeper and see any other factors here? Or is it just easier to look no further?

It is a statement, if you want to argue it...then it becomes an argument. It sounds like you do so here we go.

Employment = Women came in to the workforce demanding special treatment and it has become so ridiculous that many places have simply outsourced to other countries. It is expensive to pay women for all the days off they take ya know. Further, the workforce is no longer enjoyable for men as we are required to walk on eggshells. For women, it never was enjoyable which is why they insist on special treatment.

Religion = Men are leaving Christianity because of the new feminized version of Christianity sweeping through the churches.

Education = Our schools have turned into psychiatrist offices and it is hurting boys and education overall. Recess gets shorter and shorter every year and drugs are used to calm little Johnny down so that he sits quietly, emulating a little girl. My sons report card looks like we sent him to therapy rather than school but hey, it's all about the girls isn't it!

Law = Need I go here? I want to so I will. Family Law is clearly biased while women sit back and moan even AFTER they win. Pathetic isn't it. They win the grand prize (custody) and they whine about not getting enough child alimony. When they do lose custody, it is a fuckin' pity fest. Criminal law is just as bad. Men are treated as criminals from a mere accusation in sex crimes and are treated more harshly in other crimes. Sentencing is very unbalanced.

All the while women sit back and whine about wanting MORE special treatment. Women are never satisfied and show their selfishness on a daily fuckin' basis.

There, the gauntlet has been thrown down. Will you pick it up?

I guess I need to come to terms with the fact that the purpose of this site isn't to be an MRA forum. It's a place to talk about the negative traits people perceive about women. I might be in the wrong place...and it's not because I think women have no negative traits, it's because I'm already well aware of that, and what I'm looking for is a place to talk about advancing the issues that concern men. I'm talking about legal issues and stereotypes.

Quote from Garak

It is a statement, if you want to argue it...then it becomes an argument. It sounds like you do so here we go.

Employment = Women came in to the workforce demanding special treatment and it has become so ridiculous that many places have simply outsourced to other countries. It is expensive to pay women for all the days off they take ya know. Further, the workforce is no longer enjoyable for men as we are required to walk on eggshells. For women, it never was enjoyable which is why they insist on special treatment.

Religion = Men are leaving Christianity because of the new feminized version of Christianity sweeping through the churches.

Education = Our schools have turned into psychiatrist offices and it is hurting boys and education overall. Recess gets shorter and shorter every year and drugs are used to calm little Johnny down so that he sits quietly, emulating a little girl. My sons report card looks like we sent him to therapy rather than school but hey, it's all about the girls isn't it!

Law = Need I go here? I want to so I will. Family Law is clearly biased while women sit back and moan even AFTER they win. Pathetic isn't it. They win the grand prize (custody) and they whine about not getting enough child alimony. When they do lose custody, it is a fuckin' pity fest. Criminal law is just as bad. Men are treated as criminals from a mere accusation in sex crimes and are treated more harshly in other crimes. Sentencing is very unbalanced.

All the while women sit back and whine about wanting MORE special treatment. Women are never satisfied and show their selfishness on a daily fuckin' basis.

There, the gauntlet has been thrown down. Will you pick it up?

Employment: I agree that special privileges (affirmative action) is harmful. I would argue that it's harmful for both sexes and minorities. While the goal was supposed to be fairer treatment of women and minorities, in reality the result has been reverse discrimination, which has obviously hurt men and increased prejudice against women and minorities instead of erasing it. The result has also been special privilege given to women (and minorities), and I agree, it's very strongly not fair. I watched my father get passed over for a promotion that he worked his entire life for, just because he happens to be white and male. You don't have to convince me that affirmative action is harmful and wrong. I know that it is.

Religion: What is the "new feminized version" of Christianity? (I'm not familiar with it.) I'm not a big fan of organized religion in the first place for many reasons, yet I'm curious as to how it has become feminized. If you mean feminized in the sense that in modern western societies women are viewed as equals to men in a religious context, I don't think that's such a bad thing. But then, I'm a woman. I'm going to feel that way.

Education: I agree with the fact that there's too much interference on the part of schools into the personal lives of students and families. I also agree that drugs like Ritalin are over-prescribed and that giving kids these types of drugs in anything but the most extreme cases is harmful. For all we really know, even if saved for the most extreme cases, the long term impact on kids' health may be harmful. As for recesses being shorter and shorter, I'm not sure that's true. My fourth grader gets three recesses a day, just as I did when I was her age over 30 years ago, and the length of each are exactly the same as it was then. And little Johnny, or Jane, for that matter, should learn how to sit quietly and pay attention in class. I don't think it's too much to expect a child to do. Boys have been successfully doing this for hundreds of years, and incidentally, it's been those boys who grew into men who became deeply respected inventors, scientists, doctors, philosophers, and presidents.

Law: I'm not a fan of alimony. It should not exist. And in many places, it doesn't exist anymore, and even in states where alimony is still on the books, it is rarely awarded by a judge. Criminal law: I'll be studying this subject in depth for the next two years in college. Yet, I already know that women get easier sentences (when sentenced at all) for crimes that men would have the book thrown at them for. I agree it's outrageous, and extremely unfair. Has it always been this way? In some ways, maybe. But in much earlier times (and still in some areas of the world today), women are not privileged when it comes to criminal law. There are places that practice honor killings, places where women are jailed for being rape victims, and who's testimony in a court of law is worth 1/4 of what a man's is.

Now we can probably debate all day long about many of these things, but my only point is this: women didn't single-handedly destroy all of these different aspects of society. Men had a hand in it, too. You may not want to look at that. Doesn't mean it's any less true.

Quote from TERA

I guess I need to come to terms with the fact that the purpose of this site isn't to be an MRA forum. It's a place to talk about the negative traits people perceive about women. I might be in the wrong place...and it's not because I think women have no negative traits, it's because I'm already well aware of that, and what I'm looking for is a place to talk about advancing the issues that concern men. I'm talking about legal issues and stereotypes.

You wanna talk about the issues with a PC filter or so it seems to me.

You posted this instead of acknowledging the argument that YOU asked for. I guess that means you can't deny a word of it.

We are going to have to break away from political correctness and face some harsh realities if we are to fix broken western societies. Now, is that important to you or not?

Oops...I guess we cross posted. Disregard the second sentence of my previous post. I will now look in detail at your argument.

Quote from Garak

You wanna talk about the issues with a PC filter or so it seems to me.

You posted this instead of acknowledging the argument that YOU asked for. I guess that means you can't deny a word of it.

We are going to have to break away from political correctness and face some harsh realities if we are to fix broken western societies. Now, is that important to you or not?

Garak,

As hard as it may be for you to believe, I have an interest in fixing broken western societies, as well. In fact, I'm quite passionate about it. I think we disagree on the root causes (I think there are many factors at work here, you seem to think that the causes are all women's fault entirely). I think we disagree on the focus. I think that blame only gets you so far, while real changes have to go far beyond pointing the finger at someone else. I think that change begins with us, on an individual level, which means looking at our own actions and behaviors and beliefs first, and modeling the things we'd like to have an influence on others. Which is a whole lot easier said than done, and I'm not a good model of all of the changes I'd like to see in society. I'll be the first to admit it. But I'm willing to look at my own behavior and realize my part in the entire bigger picture. It may take a lifetime of working on my own issues before I can be a model of what I'd like to see in society. I'm not going to blame one group of people for where we are today, or where I am today.

Employment: I agree that special privileges (affirmative action) is harmful. I would argue that it's harmful for both sexes and minorities. While the goal was supposed to be fairer treatment of women and minorities, in reality the result has been reverse discrimination, which has obviously hurt men and increased prejudice against women and minorities instead of erasing it.

Oh man, it's bad not because it unfair to men (not even mentioned). It's bad because it hasn't worked out well for women. Give me a break!

I wasn't talking only about AA though, I was talking about ALL the special privileges that have become a part of working in America. Sexual Harrassment laws, maternity leave and men having to pick up the slack, employer paid insurance (which has now resulted in employers hiring/firing people based on their health habits), women getting paid the same for less work (ie, a Wal Mart employee who is female need not worry about heavy lifting but the male employee at the same pay rate must do the heavy lifting for both), etc...

Religion: What is the "new feminized version" of Christianity? (I'm not familiar with it.) I'm not a big fan of organized religion in the first place for many reasons, yet I'm curious as to how it has become feminized. If you mean feminized in the sense that in modern western societies women are viewed as equals to men in a religious context, I don't think that's such a bad thing. But then, I'm a woman. I'm going to feel that way.

You aren't aware of the "love affair with Jesus" mentality?? As for equals in a religious context..read carefully....IT GOES AGAINST THE BIBLE. Hey who cares though right, women know better than God, right? Your attitude is EXACTLY what I have been talking about. You don't care what you ruin as long as you get your way (I am speaking of women in general).

Education: I agree with the fact that there's too much interference on the part of schools into the personal lives of students and families. I also agree that drugs like Ritalin are over-prescribed and that giving kids these types of drugs in anything but the most extreme cases is harmful. For all we really know, even if saved for the most extreme cases, the long term impact on kids' health may be harmful. As for recesses being shorter and shorter, I'm not sure that's true. My fourth grader gets three recesses a day, just as I did when I was her age over 30 years ago, and the length of each are exactly the same as it was then. And little Johnny, or Jane, for that matter, should learn how to sit quietly and pay attention in class. I don't think it's too much to expect a child to do. Boys have been successfully doing this for hundreds of years, and incidentally, it's been those boys who grew into men who became deeply respected inventors, scientists, doctors, philosophers, and presidents.

First of all, recesses ARE getting shorter and even on those recesses children are told not to run (it's an insurance risk). Boys have more energy than girls and therefore learn differently than girls but hey, it's ok, as long as the girls are learning, right?

As for expecting boys to sit in class and listen to some FEMALE teacher pander to the learning style of girls...no...the past was NOT like that. I remember my male teachers being energetic and mostly fun to listen to. I don't remember that about my female teachers but that's just my experience. What is broader than my experience is that schools are failing boys, do you deny this?

Law: I'm not a fan of alimony. It should not exist. And in many places, it doesn't exist anymore, and even in states where alimony is still on the books, it is rarely awarded by a judge. Criminal law: I'll be studying this subject in depth for the next two years in college. Yet, I already know that women get easier sentences (when sentenced at all) for crimes that men would have the book thrown at them for. I agree it's outrageous, and extremely unfair. Has it always been this way? In some ways, maybe. But in much earlier times (and still in some areas of the world today), women are not privileged when it comes to criminal law. There are places that practice honor killings, places where women are jailed for being rape victims, and who's testimony in a court of law is worth 1/4 of what a man's is.

Nice dodge. I wasn't talking about alimony, I was talking about CHILD alimony.

Why are you bringing up other countries? That's a feminist tactic that I would hope not to see from you anymore.

Quote from TERA

Garak,

As hard as it may be for you to believe, I have an interest in fixing broken western societies, as well. In fact, I'm quite passionate about it. I think we disagree on the root causes (I think there are many factors at work here, you seem to think that the causes are all women's fault entirely). I think we disagree on the focus. I think that blame only gets you so far, while real changes have to go far beyond pointing the finger at someone else. I think that change begins with us, on an individual level, which means looking at our own actions and behaviors and beliefs first, and modeling the things we'd like to have an influence on others. Which is a whole lot easier said than done, and I'm not a good model of all of the changes I'd like to see in society. I'll be the first to admit it. But I'm willing to look at my own behavior and realize my part in the entire bigger picture. It may take a lifetime of working on my own issues before I can be a model of what I'd like to see in society. I'm not going to blame one group of people for where we are today, or where I am today.

You don't seem to understand. Men have been playing nice for 4 decades while the feminists ran wild not appreciating our restraint. If we want change Tera, we have to be aggressive. You can live in your ideological world if you wish but you won't see change that way.