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  1. #1
    dad_savage's Avatar
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    Apologies to Marx & Admins

    This is not an attempt to re-open any of the debates that were occurring on that (now closed) thread: "I'm better than the boys..."

    I am simply apologizing to Marx, and the Admins, for my ranting about TOO and RV.

    I just happen to think that is immensely sad and pathetic on the part of AM; don't get me wrong I realize nobody (mods, admins) etc has actually had a chance to check this thread and take action, but it's not as if they will; the record in regards to RV, and TOO as well I may add, it notoriously poor when they can call for genocide on a board that is anti-hate speech and not be banned.
    These were my words. Hasty, ill-thought out and not fair. The mods, and Marx, all do a fantastic job on this board and I shouldn't have been criticizing them for something they hadn't even had a chance to act on yet, whatever past experience might have led me to think, and to be honest there is in reality no 'poor record' I was speaking in anger, and I was wrong. For my part this is not an excuse, but simply an explanation; I was allot more upset and angry, given the comment in question (by my fellow member, not anything I had said or which had been done or not done by the administration) than my post might have led on, and in attempting to appear serene in my post, holding in my anger and hurt feeling I probably gave vent to some of it in my unfair criticism of the administration as I say this is not being offered as an excuse, because I did something wrong, hold myself as having been incorrect and apologize sincerely for it, but simply to explain why I did as such, if any might wonder, or think it to have been out of character for me, though I admit that it is not out of character for me to bark loudly and occasionally bite, for the most part I try to keep it straight at any rate.

    I'm sorry Marx, and I say the same for the rest of the administration. Indeed I extend that apology to anyone who values their effort and contribution on this board and so might be inclined to take offence on their behalf.

  2. #2
    TheOldOligarch's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Actually I'd just like to add in here that I'm sorry about derailing threads. I realized I do actually do that quite a bit. Just looked back and saw how a quibble about the spelling of Boudicca turned into a massive, thread destroying debate.
    The reality of the times is that men marry the state they live in. The woman just comes with the deal for a few years. - Lester Burnham

    Feminism will die from a synergistic overdose of stupidity, smugness, and sexism - Lester Burnham

  3. #3
    dad_savage's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Actually I'd just like to add in here that I'm sorry about derailing threads. I realized I do actually do that quite a bit. Just looked back and saw how a quibble about the spelling of Boudicca turned into a massive, thread destroying debate.
    I'll admit I do the same thing. Heck, I was arguing with you about her in that thread, well - I guess arguing isn't really the right word it was more sort of just each of us saying what we think, not really disagreeing persay in that we weren't trying to win the other over. If you and Percy want to continue your talk about the Iceni/Boudicca here though I don't mind since I find it all superbly interesting. Did you see what I said regarding the later part of the thread, in reference to the dispute you and Percy were holding?

    See, I agree with this [it was a mistake for the Iceni to trust the Romans]. But what I wonder is how, whether, etc the Iceni had cause to know the Romans were 'bloodthirsty invaders' I mean it's not as if the Romans would tell them that is it?

    'And Caeser's spirit, ranging for revenge, with ate by his side come hot from hell did in these confines with a monarch's voice cry "Hi, we're here to kill everyone. Give us your stuff."' - only in latin.

    I mean it's fairly safe to assume they would have been allot more friendly about it, at least with the people they wanted on their side, greasing the wheels with allot of bribery, gifts and other such things; Rome was a wealthy and powerful Empire and could have provided many inducements of this sort, even at that time. I mean they pulled the same trick in Gaul, divide and conquer, and by that time the Gauls had a long history of conflict with Rome; they were much more aggressive and warlike than the Britons were, and had much more cause to disbelieve Roman promises yet they fell victim to the same trick. Why is it so bad that the Britons, who were more peaceful by nature, less aggressive, less high above the military Horizon, arguably less sophisticated politically, more isolated culturally and geographically, etc to fall for the same thing? I think you judge them too harshly. Yes it seems foolish to us, but we have the benefit of immense knowledge they did not have access too.
    Also, to Marx and the Admins, regarding my neglect in not using the 'report post' function. Honestly, I did not even know it existed. I realize this is no excuse, that's why I'm apologizing for not making use of that function when I should have, rather than simply whining in the thread.

  4. #4
    Marx's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    This button (top right of every post) opens a dialogue box for you to fill in the reason for which you are reporting a post. Click submit, and a thread is created in a private area which only admins and yourself can view it.

    From there, we admins can view it - with a link to the main thread so it can be viewed in full context, and acted on accordingly.

    In some cases, we don't always agree that action is needed - for example, some cases it may come across that reporting function is being misused as tit4tat or retaliatory purposes.

    Apologies aren't necessary, though appreciated. I understand with comments relevent to which you were upset, were - upsetting. I would have been more than upset.
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  5. #5
    TheOldOligarch's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Quote Quote from dad_savage View Post
    I'll admit I do the same thing. Heck, I was arguing with you about her in that thread, well - I guess arguing isn't really the right word it was more sort of just each of us saying what we think, not really disagreeing persay in that we weren't trying to win the other over. If you and Percy want to continue your talk about the Iceni/Boudicca here though I don't mind since I find it all superbly interesting. Did you see what I said regarding the later part of the thread, in reference to the dispute you and Percy were holding?
    Oh rest assured, I'd already typed out a whole reply but when I went to post it the thread had been closed.

    I'll say you have a point that the Iceni probably didnt know what went down with the theft of Sardinia or the third Punic War, but it is just basic strategy. Their mistake is one many people have made, but they were all just as stupid as the Iceni.

    It was textbook appeasement, which never, ever works. Becoming a client king was only ever a prelude to full anexxation, Prasutagus seemed to be under some kind of illusion that he was something other than a puppet or slave, and his family and land paid for it when he died.

    Sun Tzu says in his arts of war that it is never wise to ally with a stronger neighbour against a weaker, since you will be at the mercy of your ''ally'' once the battle is won. It would be like if I was in a bar with 3 other guys and some massive guy walked in and said that if i helped him beat up and rob the other two he will let me share the loot. What do I do if he turns on me after the fight is won? In this situation I should ally myself with the other two, at least then we have a chance.
    The reality of the times is that men marry the state they live in. The woman just comes with the deal for a few years. - Lester Burnham

    Feminism will die from a synergistic overdose of stupidity, smugness, and sexism - Lester Burnham

  6. #6
    Percy's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    TOO, the peoples in East Anglia were quite familiar with the Romans well before the Romans 'invaded' The Roman incursions in Germania were often quite disasterous and at one point almost an entire Legion was 'lost at sea' in a storm. Those that made it ashore found themselves in East Anglia where the people helped them. Friendly relations were established with the Iceni well before the Romans landed in the Thames.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Quote Quote from Percy View Post
    TOO, the peoples in East Anglia were quite familiar with the Romans well before the Romans 'invaded' The Roman incursions in Germania were often quite disasterous and at one point almost an entire Legion was 'lost at sea' in a storm. Those that made it ashore found themselves in East Anglia where the people helped them. Friendly relations were established with the Iceni well before the Romans landed in the Thames.
    Yes Percy I am aware that the Britons were not the isolated savages sometimes depicted and interacted with Rome before the invasion. Still, it is unlikely they would have been aware of the exact events of Rome's earlier war with Carthage and their flagrant disregard for treaties or agreements on that score.

    But i just don't accept that it could have come as that much of a surprise. ''Oh look, the Romans fucked us over, what a surprise, never saw that one coming, it's not like they pull this shit all the time''.

    Do you really think they'll conquer the rest of your country and leave a little bit for you? Of course they're going to finish the job. As far as the Romans were concerned, the only barrier that they recognized to the expansion of their territory was that imposed by circumstance, ie the ability of others to resist.
    The reality of the times is that men marry the state they live in. The woman just comes with the deal for a few years. - Lester Burnham

    Feminism will die from a synergistic overdose of stupidity, smugness, and sexism - Lester Burnham

  8. #8
    dad_savage's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Good points, on all counts. I'm still unsure however, when I attempt to place myself into the position of an ancient Briton, and I consider the idea; ally with Rome, given all the inducements and reasons there would be for me to do so, all set against the fear that I might be conquered later based on observation of that having occurred to others, and the simple logic of not allying oneself with a greater power against a weaker, well, I must say I still am unsure.

    I'm not saying that you are not making sense or that there's anything wrong with your point. It's perfectly valid. Given what I know about the time however I can't feel it within myself to be scornful of the Iceni's behaviour, though on a clinical level I certainly think it to have been foolish - in a 'text-book' sense - there are things, many things, which would help me complete this picture and so get a more accurate idea, but alas, the kind of knowledge I require (what did the average Briton know of Roman history, what was their level of philosophical education, how much did they know and understand, etc) I do not think can be supplied by any history book or archaeological find.

    To me the question is did a Briton of that period have the intelligence, education and knowledge to come to the conclusion which seems so simple to us, or would it have been beyond what we can reasonably expect to be his powers of intellect. I'll probably never be able to answer this question in a way that satisfies me, and honestly I think that is quite sad. What of my earlier question, though, regarding the potential futility of resistance? This may render the above question irrelevant; if we can discover whether it would have been pointless or fruitless for the Britons to have resisted in the first place. Did the Britons have the military potential to actually defend their Island from a direct Roman attempt at conquest?

  9. #9
    Percy's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    I still fail to see the point that you are trying to make, TOO.

    Is it that the Iceni were dolts?

    Perhaps they were.

    Perhaps they were pragmatic. Perhaps they were just staving off the day.

    It does not alter the fact that they lead a revolt that wiped out a garrison town and an entire legion with it, drove Romans from London which was also almost totally razed to the ground, put the fear of whatever Gods were around into the Exeter garrison such that they pretended not to notice anything going on and stumbled only when faced with a resolute and damned lucky 14th Legion who didn't rate their own chances! To say that they 'failed' is a bit rich. You might just as well say that the Norman invasion eventually failed too.
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    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
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    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers,
    against the Rulers of the Darkness of this world, against Spiritual Wickedness in high places.
    (and within ourselves)


    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious. If you meet one on the road as you
    Go your Own Way, offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.





  10. #10
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Quote Quote from dad_savage View Post
    Good points, on all counts. I'm still unsure however, when I attempt to place myself into the position of an ancient Briton, and I consider the idea; ally with Rome, given all the inducements and reasons there would be for me to do so, all set against the fear that I might be conquered later based on observation of that having occurred to others, and the simple logic of not allying oneself with a greater power against a weaker, well, I must say I still am unsure.

    I'm not saying that you are not making sense or that there's anything wrong with your point. It's perfectly valid. Given what I know about the time however I can't feel it within myself to be scornful of the Iceni's behaviour, though on a clinical level I certainly think it to have been foolish - in a 'text-book' sense - there are things, many things, which would help me complete this picture and so get a more accurate idea, but alas, the kind of knowledge I require (what did the average Briton know of Roman history, what was their level of philosophical education, how much did they know and understand, etc) I do not think can be supplied by any history book or archaeological find.

    To me the question is did a Briton of that period have the intelligence, education and knowledge to come to the conclusion which seems so simple to us, or would it have been beyond what we can reasonably expect to be his powers of intellect. I'll probably never be able to answer this question in a way that satisfies me, and honestly I think that is quite sad. What of my earlier question, though, regarding the potential futility of resistance? This may render the above question irrelevant; if we can discover whether it would have been pointless or fruitless for the Britons to have resisted in the first place. Did the Britons have the military potential to actually defend their Island from a direct Roman attempt at conquest?
    If all the tribes, or even half, had actually fought together I don't think it would have been much of a contest. It was only the Iceni and I think a couple of others that were allowed to keep their fighting men, the bulk of the forces Boudicca lead against Suetonius at could not really be described as soldiers. She didnt really have an army, she had a bunch of people.

    So if such an uprising had occured before the other tribes had lost almost all their fighting power the Romans would have had a very hard time of it.

    But of course, this wouldn't have happened. Even if the Iceni hadnt collaborated I think they still would have lost, as you say the Romans waged war on an entirely different level. It would have been a straight up conquest as happened to the other tribes though and Britain would have been spared the horrific aftermath of the failed uprising. The Romans were not forgiving or merciful.

    And again, appeasement always fails. Why betray your country just to put off the inevitable for a little while?


    Perhaps they were just staving off the day.
    Yes, that is exactly what I think they were doing. They undermined the chance of all Britons to remain free to put off the moment when they were going to get fucked for a little bit. In my view they sold out their people.

    To say that they 'failed' is a bit rich. You might just as well say that the Norman invasion eventually failed too.
    They did fail, utterly. It was a total and unmitigated disaster. They slaughtered other Britons as gleefully as they did Romans for one thing. Ironic considering these were mostly from tribes who actually put up a god damn fight in the first place.

    I'll accept they came close to success, and had they succeeded would have gained everything. Britain would have been independant once again and it is very unlikely the Romans would ever have come back. But they didn't, the revolt was crushed and the aftermath was horrific. Far worse than if they'd done nothing.
    The reality of the times is that men marry the state they live in. The woman just comes with the deal for a few years. - Lester Burnham

    Feminism will die from a synergistic overdose of stupidity, smugness, and sexism - Lester Burnham

  11. #11
    Percy's Avatar
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    I'll accept they came close to success, and had they succeeded would have gained everything. Britain would have been independant once again and it is very unlikely the Romans would ever have come back. But they didn't, the revolt was crushed and the aftermath was horrific. Far worse than if they'd done nothing.
    This is having your cake and eating it too, TOO.

    First you condemn them for 'appeasing', then for fighting.

    To say that they did worse than doing nothing is a counsel of giving-up.

    You seem to admit the likelihood that they were agrarian folk with little fighting prowess yet say they were 'allowed' to keep their fighting men. They has very few to start with, like most of the tribes. It was a relatively peaceable place with little inter-tribal war. Indeed the ease with which the Romans 'conquored' you already pointed out.

    And why did Boudicca wait a year? It was because she had no weapons and no fighters. She bided her time and built them from scratch and them waited until the Romans went off to Wales where the real fighters were. Then she struck. Tactically and strategically she did the only sensible thing.

    And she very nearly won. As you pointed out too.
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    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
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    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers,
    against the Rulers of the Darkness of this world, against Spiritual Wickedness in high places.
    (and within ourselves)


    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious. If you meet one on the road as you
    Go your Own Way, offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.





  12. #12
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Quote Quote from Percy View Post
    This is having your cake and eating it too, TOO.

    First you condemn them for 'appeasing', then for fighting.

    To say that they did worse than doing nothing is a counsel of giving-up.
    Well not really, if you're going to fight, fight, don't help the invaders mop up everyone who might be able to help you and then decide later on that you really shouldn't have done that. It's too late by then.
    The reality of the times is that men marry the state they live in. The woman just comes with the deal for a few years. - Lester Burnham

    Feminism will die from a synergistic overdose of stupidity, smugness, and sexism - Lester Burnham

  13. #13
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    I think an important question we need to ask ourselves is that what would have been the result if the British had driven out the Romans, or if they had never let them establish themselves in the first place: would it have necessarily been a good thing? I mean it probably would have been good for them at that immediate time, but did not the Romanising of Britain have important effects? As I noted in the last thread regarding this subject the likes of Baudicca and the vaunted Arthur (if he even existed) Harold Godwinson, and all the rest might be seen as defiant, patriotic Britons resisting outward incursions, they also can, in some ways, be seen as having been no more than reactionary traditionalists; terrified of change, people who attempted doggedly to shield their country from the energetic influx of outsiders which, in time, would make it great. Even if we don't buy this, and I'm not saying we should because most of these invasions had immediate ramifications the likes of which made resistance the only pragmatic and sensible reaction, we nevertheless must acknowledge the contribution that these 'outsiders' did, once established, make to British greatness.

    I know I said this in the last thread too but this is the very reason why I often am troubled about my own attitude, as well as that of others, to immigration. Resistance may seem like the only pragmatic and sensible reaction. Nobody should be asked to accept something that is harmful to themselves, or their interests on the assumption that it might help in many years time, perhaps even long after they're dead, but I just wonder sometimes.

  14. #14
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    I see your point, Dad, but speculations are just that. The opportunity costs of a change of cultural 'leadership' include the prevention of 'home-grown' development of traditions and technologies and art etc.

    While I look at my British Heritage as including Roman influences, Norman, Danish as well as Saxon and Celtic not to mention the Gaels, I can try to imagine what it would have been like if the Gaels, say, had prevailed, or the Saxons. But it remains imagination.

    I enjoy a TV program that has been running for a long time, fronted by that little scruffy fellow from Black Adder. He goes around with a mob of archeologists of various ilks, digging up bits of Britain to unearth its past. Fascinating stuff.

    It's all History. Who won is a 'given'. The motives and 'right & wrongs' are moot. I tend to prefer to root for the home-grown heros and heroines (even the fictitious ones) and hiss & boo the interlopers and invaders (even while knowing the detail of and admiring the exploits of something like the 14th Gemina Marta Victrix Legion).

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    Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
    Love the Sinner but not the Sin.
    (St. Augustine)

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers,
    against the Rulers of the Darkness of this world, against Spiritual Wickedness in high places.
    (and within ourselves)


    A Feminist is a human being who has lost her way and turned vicious. If you meet one on the road as you
    Go your Own Way, offer kindness but keep your sword drawn.





  15. #15
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    Re: Apologies to Marx & Admins

    Something about this argument was bothering me. I kept thinking and wondering and I've finally realized what it is.

    Why betray your country just to put off the inevitable ... They undermined the chance of all Britons to remain free ... they sold out their people.
    This, these concepts. It is arguably possible that none of these concepts really applied to the Iceni. Britain at that time was not a unified country, they had no 'national identity' to betray. The Iceni did what was good for them, what helped them, they probably felt absolutely no kinship with their fellow Britons, based on the concept that they were all Britons, i.e they felt no more close to the other British tribes than they did to the Romans, all were 'foreigners' and 'outsiders', in light of this is it any wonder they acted as they did? The country of the Iceni was entirely within the bounds of their own lands, their people limited exclusively to those in their tribe, so they betrayed and sold out nobody.

    Is this not so?


 

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