Adensdad on "feminism"

**AdensDad** · 26th-February-2009

Quote from Feckless

Do you believe if I raise a boy as a girl, he will just be like a girl?

What is a girl "like?" What is a boy "like?" Many of these things are determined by their genders but most of the things we think are determined by gender are actually determined by cultural standards regarding gender.

What would be more appropriate would be to ask "If I raised a boy according to my cultures standards of female behavior, would he behave according to those standards?"

Regardless of how you raise him, he still lives in a culture and is bound to succumb to cultural standards of behavior in certain ways. Unless you live in a cave somewhere, you're child will conform somewhat. Children are bombarded with gender norms constantly.

Take my son for instance. I've taken great pains to never promote gender norm conformity with him. Until he started head start in many ways he could have been considered a traditional "boy" or a "girl" as far as his likes and dislikes regarding toys went. When I had money to buy him a toy I would just ask him what he wanted and we would get it. Sometimes he wanted what some would consider "girl toys." He had a toy oven and several pink colored dolls that he had chosen for me to buy him when we went to the store. When we went to the store he would gaze upon the "girls section" nearly as long as the "boys section."

About a month after starting head start we went to walmart and quite comically we walked into the "girls section" and after looking at some of the toys for awhile Aden pointed at something, indicating he wanted it, then checked himself and shook his head. "That's a girl's toy," he said and put a hand up against it and turned away like it were footage from a car accident.

"There's no such thing as a girls toy. why do you think it's a girls toy?" I asked him.

"Because it's pink. Girl's toys are pink."

I looked around and noticed that every single toy in the "girls section" of the store had pink, yellow or both on them somewhere, either on the toy themselves or on the boxes. Until Aden had been in headstart, exposed to other kids the idea never occurred to him that there were "girl toys" and "boy toys."

He still does this. He looks at a toy for a moment with interest and continues until he notices a pink color on it somewhere. If he notices pink on it, he turns his head away and sticks his hand out against it like it were car accident footage. He doesn't seem to want to allow himself to be interested in it.

One time one of the girls from the neighborhood came over and Aden was watching "bob the builder" The interesting thing about the dvd case for bob the builder is that the physical case is yellow, but the slick paper label on the movie is blue. I had the movie case sitting on top of the dvd player and from the little girl's vantage point it looked yellow because she could only see the side of the case and not the label. She was interested in the movie until she picked up the box and looked at it. When she noticed the blue label she said "I don't like this movie," and went into aden's room.

Here's a funny thing about the history of Pink...

From wiki...

In Western culture, the practice of assigning pink to an individual gender began in the 1920s.[5] From then until the 1940s, pink was considered appropriate for boys because being related to red it was the more masculine and decided color, while blue was considered appropriate for girls because it was the more delicate and dainty color, or related to the Virgin Mary.[6][7][8] Since the 1940s, the societal norm apparently inverted so that pink became appropriate for girls and blue appropriate for boys, a practice that has continued into the 21st century.[9]

Various traditions suggests that certain items of clothing intrinsically suit different gender roles. In particular, the wearing of skirts and trousers has given rise to common phrases expressing implied restrictions in use and disapproval of offending behavior. For example, ancient Greeks often considered the wearing of trousers by Persian men as a sign of effeminacy.

Aden and I have a very affectionate relationship. He hugs and kisses me all the time and doesn't seem to think anything of it. He likes to sleep with me and take baths with me. When we go to his cousins and I try to hug him goodbye he covers his face and says "don't kiss me!" because his cousin tells him if he kisses me he's "gay." When we're behind closed doors he goes right back to kissing his dad, wanting to take baths with me and saying he wants to marry me when he grows up.

Gender norms only exist because cultures promote them. If they didn't promote them, they wouldn't exist.

The quote-end-quote "effeminate male" in the statue below is the mighty hercules, the symbol of manhood in greek and roman culture...

This is a hawaiian warrior...

Here is a scottish soldier...

**Timocrat** · 26th-February-2009

Take my son for instance. I've taken great pains to never promote gender norm conformity with him.-Adensdad

Well that's very politically correct of you, please give my regards to your Mangina teacher. When some bully boys meet your boy I hope they feel sorry for him and give you the wedgy, as you are the one playing games with your son's life. You should be ashamed of placing your political agenda on to your son in this way. Love of ones sons comes before your political agenda. You are simply replacing the conformity of a successful tradition with that of a cultural marxist one, and then claiming to have no conformity. Your elite slip is showing in more ways now. Get out on your bike!

**MikeT** · 26th-February-2009

This is the first time I have logged in here (from Aussie) in a wee while and I see bull-shit like this.
Adensdad needs to be ignored like the clown that he is, he is here to wind everyone up with his attention-seeking, left-wing, feminist-loving mantra.

I find it hard to believe "he" is a parent at all, Sweet Jesus, is he going to do that child some emotional damage.

That's just my opinion, but.........

**Percy** · 26th-February-2009

What is a girl "like?" What is a boy "like?" Many of these things are determined by their genders but most of the things we think are determined by gender are actually determined by cultural standards regarding gender.
Parent A. aka Adensdad

What a lot of tripe.

Has it not occurred to you that cultural standards are developed from the 'natural' choices of males and females rather than the other way around as you propose. You and feminist social engineers that is.

What an individual boy or girl is like is ideographic data. What the aggregate of boys and the agrregate of girls are like has always led to the 'standards'. That data is nomothetic.

This 'pink' thing, by the way. What colour are you and your son?

**Feckless** · 26th-February-2009

Quote from AdensDad

What is a girl "like?" What is a boy "like?" Many of these things are determined by their genders but most of the things we think are determined by gender are actually determined by cultural standards regarding gender.

What would be more appropriate would be to ask "If I raised a boy according to my cultures standards of female behavior, would he behave according to those standards?"

There was an interesting and sad experiment that took place by one of the leading gender theorists at that time. The boy David Reimer suffered a botched circumcism and they tried to raise him as a girl. Well didn´t work...

http://antimisandry.com/discriminati...girl-9254.html

Of course a lot of our behaviour is shaped by culture, but do you really think that the fundamental physical differences between human males and females:

- Testosteron vs Estrogen
- Different sexuality
- Completely different brains
- A fundamental difference in every cell (XX -> XY)

....lead to no difference in behaviour at all? Even the behaviour in newborns is different with apparently no cultural influence at all and even a fetus shows us a different behaviour based on gender. If you look at schools you will often find that women are better with language while boys seem to show more interest in science. All over the globe women are often marrying up and are the nurturers, while men often seem to portray a protective role.

This article (from 1970) is a nice summary
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...2519-1,00.html

**AdensDad** · 26th-February-2009

Quote from Timocrat

Well that's very politically correct of you, please give my regards to your Mangina teacher. When some bully boys meet your boy I hope they feel sorry for him and give you the wedgy, as you are the one playing games with your son's life. You should be ashamed of placing your political agenda on to your son in this way.

Actually, I have the opposite problem. My son is overly agressive with other children. Aden likes to wrestle, likes to punch. He gets in trouble at school because if someone gets in his way, "pow!" I don't have a big problem with this because my son is not mean spirited and would not beat up someone who wasn't asking for it. But he does tend to beat up kids a lot.

My son could probably kick your butt.

Someone should be ashamed for promoting a gender norm to their child.

I don't "teach" him anything, I let him do what he wants to do.

One of the things he likes to do is take karate lessons.

Regardless, my son is a pretty gruff kid and doesn't have any quote-end-quote "effeminate" personality characteristics. But that's simply because he's my son. My family is about 90% male. We're all pretty gruff.

Regardless, regardless, if someone put his hands on Aden I would beat him/her into a coma the second I found out about it, I don't care if it's a fourth grader. Nobody fks with Aden.

Love of ones sons comes before your political agenda.

Yep, I want my son to respect himself as much as he is expected to respect women. I want my son to think he is as capable of kindness as women. I want my son to think he is just as capable a caregiver as a woman.

You are simply replacing the conformity of a successful tradition

"Successful tradition?" Was that an attempt at humor?

with that of a cultural marxist one, and then claiming to have no conformity. Your elite slip is showing in more ways now. Get out on your bike!

I don't guide my son toward anything. I let my son choose what he likes and support him for what he wants to be. If you consider being yourself a "conformity" you truly are messed up. Either that or you've never been yourself one day of your life and are jealous of people who are not afraid to be themselves.

**AdensDad** · 26th-February-2009

Where you seem to me mistaken is the idea that gender norms remove weaknesses in personality. This is not true. Gender norms create weaknesses.

Being nurturing or being strong are abilities and a person can have both abilities. A girl can be strong and a boy can be nurturing. Gender norms promote the idea that you have to be one or the other. Gender norms do not promote the idea that boys should be strong, they promote the idea that boys cannot be nurturing. A person can be equally self expressive, equally real, equally nurturing and equally a take-no-shite-arse-kicker.

People who raise their children with gender norms handicap them by only allowing them to have certain qualities and not others.

**AdensDad** · 26th-February-2009

Quote from Feckless

There was an interesting and sad experiment that took place by one of the leading gender theorists at that time. The boy David Reimer suffered a botched circumcism and they tried to raise him as a girl. Well didn´t work...

http://antimisandry.com/discriminati...girl-9254.html

Of course a lot of our behaviour is shaped by culture, but do you really think that the fundamental physical differences between human males and females:

- Testosteron vs Estrogen
- Different sexuality
- Completely different brains
- A fundamental difference in every cell (XX -> XY)

....lead to no difference in behaviour at all?

You're stawmanning. I never said there were "no differences" I said most differences have cultural origins. Gender norming is not a promotion of strength, it is a promotion of weakness. A man can be both nurturing, self-expressive and strong, a woman can be both nurturing, self-expressive and strong. Gender norms promote the idea that we have to aquire only certain personality characterististics and should avoid aquiring others.

I have a different brain than you do. I would bargain there are women who think more like you than me and likewise, women who think more the way I do than you.

[quote]Even the behaviour in newborns is different with apparently no cultural influence at all and even a fetus shows us a different behaviour based on gender. If you look at schools you will often find that women are better with language while boys seem to show more interest in science.

All over the globe women are often marrying up and are the nurturers, while men often seem to portray a protective role.

I still fail to see your point. I am a male and a better nurturer than most females. I am also stronger than most males. I am also smarter than most everyone (just thought I'd throw that one in to annoy marx). I can be better than women at everything "women do" and better at men at everything "men do." This isn't because I'm a man, it's because I'm me. I would be just as freaking awesome if I were a woman.

The greeks thought it was effeminate to wear trousers and it used to be considered masculine to wear pink. Are you just going to ignore every point I make or what?

The matter with the "gender-switched suicide case" was a matter of "gender identity," not gender-norm ignorance.

**AdensDad** · 26th-February-2009

New rule: if the word "feminist" appears in your post, I'm not going to respond to it. I'm bored to freaking death discussing feminists and have already lost my patience for the boredom of the topic.

You mention "feminists" or "feminism" I ignore the post.

bababob · 26th-February-2009

Quote from AdensDad

Actually, I have the opposite problem. My son is overly agressive with other children. Aden likes to wrestle, likes to punch. He gets in trouble at school because if someone gets in his way, "pow!" I don't have a big problem with this because my son is not mean spirited and would not beat up someone who wasn't asking for it. But he does tend to beat up kids a lot.

No wonder we got the warrior pictures ...

My son could probably kick your butt.

We already know you are seriously deluded ...

Someone should be ashamed for promoting a gender norm to their child.

No, Gomer, YOU should be ashamed for excusing your failure to do so!!!!!

I don't "teach" him anything, I let him do what he wants to do.

We've heard this mantra of yours ad nauseam. You're lazy & shiftless ...

Regardless, my son is a pretty gruff kid and doesn't have any quote-end-quote "effeminate" personality characteristics. But that's simply because he's my son. My family is about 90% male. We're all pretty gruff.

Mental illness runs in families ...

Regardless, regardless, if someone put his hands on Aden I would beat him/her into a coma the second I found out about it, I don't care if it's a fourth grader. Nobody fks with Aden.

Don't interfere with the boy, just go psycho if he gets in a jam ...

Yep, I want my son to respect himself as much as he is expected to respect women. I want my son to think he is as capable of kindness as women. I want my son to think he is just as capable a caregiver as a woman.

And it's just going to spontaneously evolve over time, by osmosis ...

I don't guide my son toward anything. I let my son choose what he likes and support him for what he wants to be. If you consider being yourself a "conformity" you truly are messed up. Either that or you've never been yourself one day of your life and are jealous of people who are not afraid to be themselves.

Blow it out your barracks bag, Beauregard. You're an incompetent parent with a butt-load of lame excuses!!!!!
(BTW, your postings make you sound as though you're a female passive-aggressively busting our balls.)

**MadShangi** · 26th-February-2009

Quote from AdensDad

If you weren't such a misanderist you wouldn't keep saying that!

If you weren't such a complete fucking idiot, you wouldn't keep mispelling the same damn word over and over, especially after being corrected over and over again. I'm a misandrist, am I? I hate all men because I'm being mean to you. I just love the logic there. And should illiterate fuckwits raise children? Like what do you do when your son brings home a report card? It must be quite a sight to see you trying to sound out all the big words.

I'm starting to agree with Garak here. You probably are a feminist troll/plant and the sad part is, it's working. There is absoloutely no reason for this thread to have spanned 14 frickin' pages. We all should've just ignored this attention-seeking booger.

Call me a "misanderist" all you like, dweeb. That has about as much effect on me as Michael Jackson calling me a "pedophile," or Elton John calling me a "queer."

bababob · 26th-February-2009

Quoted from MadShangi (above):

"I'm starting to agree with Garak here. You probably are a feminist troll/plant ..."

Nobody but a severely retarded person would keep on using the word
misanderist, after being corrected so many times. This is a feminist troll
for sure. In fact it's probably the woman who lost custody of Aden in the first place, trying to smear her ex over the internet in retaliation.

**MadShangi** · 26th-February-2009

Quote from bababob

Quoted from MadShangi (above):

"I'm starting to agree with Garak here. You probably are a feminist troll/plant ..."

Nobody but a severely retarded person would keep on using the word
misanderist, after being corrected so many times. This is a feminist troll
for sure. In fact it's probably the woman who lost custody of Aden in the first place, trying to smear her ex over the internet in retaliation.

You know that is pretty close to the thought I had. Not so much that it's really the woman who lost custody of Aden, but the possibility that we're talking to a woman posing as a man has crossed my mind.

Also I just read this "New rule: if the word "feminist" appears in your post, I'm not going to respond to it."

Title of this thread that he's started: "Adensdad on Feminism"

What a fucking idiot.