Quote from MenRep

Yes, 2009 the next British general election would be the most appropriate time to aim for. What I would suggest in the meantime is we develop and keep our debates private within an egroup like the one I build when preparing the MRP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/party4men/

I know Yahoo groups aren't as appealing as a website but they are always active. If we gather and debate in a closed forum as simple as this, we would stand a better chance of league building before a new site and membership is underway.

Although the league is intended to be British, members are welcome from the States and NZ - or anywhere for that matter.

Come aboard and let's see what we can put together ~

I'm gonna sign up to that yahoo group and read all the messages daily

Well its been over a week and I've had no word on your moves. In the mean time their is a new Libertarian Party in the UK linked here: http://lpuk.org/

They would undoubtedly want the government out of the homes of the people, instead of more statist policies from either the EU or HOP. So please fill us in on your progress. Still waiting.....

Quote from Timocrat

Well its been over a week and I've had no word on your moves. In the mean time their is a new Libertarian Party in the UK linked here: http://lpuk.org/

They would undoubtedly want the government out of the homes of the people, instead of more statist policies from either the EU or HOP. So please fill us in on your progress. Still waiting.....

Most interesting.

Welcome to the website of the Libertarian Party of the United Kingdom. We aim to take the cynicism out of British politics, by taking the politicians out of your everyday life.

Libertarians believe in individual liberty, personal responsibility, and freedom from government—on all issues at all times. We don't say government is too big in one area, but then in another area push for a law to force people to do what we want. We believe in individual liberty, personal responsibility, and freedom from government—on all issues at all times.

http://lpuk.org/

Oo nice I lean towards Libertarianism.

Yes, things have been a bit quiet lately which is why I thought I'd stick with the Men's Representative Party rather than form a new one. I have begun this in a small localised way by leafletting - my aim is to get 10 candidates in one electoral borough, regardless of which borough that is.

I did hear about that new libertarian party here in the UK, it seems they're in a similar situation to MenRep - still new and needing to win enough seats for local elections. However I'm no fan of libertarianism as it all seems to be about washing hands of responsibility. Men's rights on the other hand, unlike feminism, I believe should be about responsibility.

This cartoon pretty much describes what libertarians mean to me;

Let's us see if I got this straight:

The Labour Party likes statism
The Conservative Party likes statism
The European Liberals like statism
and almost all the EU parties like statism and

And now for something completely different a men's party that is going to flirt with statism.

As for the grass example you give. In Holland they removed all the traffic signs in the downtown area to see if they could improve on the excessive rules and accidents, and low and behold the accidents went down greatly. It seems when you remove unnecessay rules people don't step on your grass- as much as when you plant signs, give fines, and lecture others of that they can't be trusted left to take care of themselves.

I can't really see why statism would be at such terrible odds with a men's party to be honest. For years MRAs have been complaining of the injustices of feminism and the double standards against them in society - yet in a system without any determined rules & regulations there will always be a green light for this to happen.

In any society where there's been a breakdown in order or absence of government - the corrupt will always rise to the top, just look at Zimbabwe or the now gangster-run Russia.

The example you gave about Holland is a two sided coin - consider the degeneracy spreading through that country owing to its relaxed drug laws. It's estimated that Holland will be the first country to one day decriminalise consented underage sex - that's libertarianism for you!

Now I don't know what the feminism situation is like in Holland but without a few statist policies put in place it could seize the nation like a plague.

I used the Holland example not because they are a serious example of a society trying to be libertarian, but because to use a US example would likely get dismissed off hand.

I can't really see why statism would be at such terrible odds with a men's party to be honest. For years MRAs have been complaining of the injustices of feminism and the double standards against them in society - yet in a system without any determined rules & regulations there will always be a green light for this to happen.-Men Rep

The problems that have arisen wouldn't have been possible without the state getting something out of the deal in giving women what they want. Any wife couldn't take the children from a full grown man and keep him away from his kids. It is the state's force that allows this to happen only. Give men back their wealth, a fair hearing in court, and do away with all the laws that stand in the way to a fair deal and you will still have minimum laws and keep more families together as many women will not like life on their own with out state backing.

To replace their statists with our statists will likely be less stable in the long run, and will still keep men weak in regard to the state (as taxes will take their natural given wealth power away). If changes were to be made for the better ( in libertarian form) it would be harder to go back under a system where a state would have to raise taxes, make bad laws again, and have a family police force again etc.

Your suggestion of Zimbabwe as a nation of no laws in not exactly right, as there are some areas with no laws (yes), some with too many laws (to take over land from white owners) and a lack of tech laws as the country that has no idea of what changes have happened with the acceptance of the Austrian school of economics is the west.

Churchill said, "When you have too many laws all come under disrepute."

In any society where there's been a breakdown in order or absence of government - the corrupt will always rise to the top, just look at Zimbabwe or the now gangster-run Russia.-Men Rep

Russian reforms failed because they failed to bring proper reforms in, as the Duma was filled with communists who wanted no reforms, and the reformers who wanted to hurt the industries still under the control of the communists. Unlike the Poles they had all heavy industries that were obsolete. The moment the distorted reforms came about their ideas learned about corrupt capitalism were played out as they thought capitalism is about stealing from others. These two examples are not good choices to look at as they follow the tendency of the last 100s years of looking to the east for both the failures of capitalism and for solutions to it.

The example you gave about Holland is a two sided coin - consider the degeneracy spreading through that country owing to its relaxed drug laws. It's estimated that Holland will be the first country to one day decriminalise consented underage sex - that's libertarianism for you!-Men Rep

Again Holland was used for it is close and not the US. A more libertarian economy, up until its return to China, was Hong Kong. Yet you will have to look to Poland and the Czechs in 10 years to see what is possible democraticaly. I agree with you on how messed up Holland is culturally.

The best example to look at in regard to libertarianism in a non-economic form is Japan. It has a problem with growing feminism and thus the birth rate is as it is. Yet socially it is the culture and personal pressure that keeps them from becoming like Holland. They have strong influences from many forces that are not state enforced but are based on a respect for tradtions and history, and not for fashionable deconstructionism. There economy is libertarian in exports, and libertarian to Japanese business that are only inside centered businesses. They have heavy, almost socialistic laws, for other countries nationals wanting to do business in Japan, and it acts as a huge block to outside competition with those on the inside in non-tech fields.

The Japanese have a culture that was very similar to England's of the past (maybe do to being islanders), yet England is headed for the EU at the cultural level now and is like the US at the economically level.

The best example of what England had and many Asian Tigers learned was stated best from the former PM of Singapore a Mr. Lee who said when he went to England in his youth he was amazed at how newsstands would be left unoccupied and people would come up take a newpaper and leave the money in the dish.

Statism states like Sweden have had 78% taxes and then force the population to be money grubbing, and then say look we need to be here because everyone is so money grubbing. Yet if people had more money they might be less obsessed with holding on to it, and be more generaous with it as they have more of it. This screwed up game is the same in culture.

Boys that are overcontrolled bolt from all rules in the end, yet boys given lots of outlets warm to the few rules that make sense. Women have endless fears and will get the state to remove them if they don't have a male to deal with them around. This is how the state becomes the big sugar daddy to its women, as it becomes the nanny state micromangaing its males. By nannying males it then points to the males bolting and says see we need to have our nanny rules. With freedom males warm better to the rules as they don't feel caged in. Women can only be free from fears if the state eliminates their fears and then they are bold and fearless in such states. Yet they are not independent they have the sugar daddy state catering to their demands to deball males.

I could go on, but this is getting very long. These answers are complex, and since over half the world is coming out of communism and at least another 25% is coming out of socialism it is very hard to have good examples that are 100% libertarian and not found in the US. Yet I've done my best.

I think that's great Timocrat. Lots of useful ideas in that post.

Yes, there was a lot of detail and I dare say much truth in that post.

Let me ask you just one thing; as a libertarian how do you feel about "all tax abolition" as proposed by the US libertarian party? That means (tell me if I read this wrong) an unconditional halt on all tax paying across the nation.

Personally I see that as the go-ahead for a new scale of anarchy making the recent New Orleans riots seem like a stroll in the park.

Let me ask you just one thing; as a libertarian how do you feel about "all tax abolition" as proposed by the US libertarian party? That means (tell me if I read this wrong) an unconditional halt on all tax paying across the nation.-MenRep

First time I've heard of that. Very radical, probably out of fustration with the lack of progress (which you see with men's issues too), but no way.

That part of me is a conservative and the mob rule is no better that the bureaucrats. I have had this debate with many radical who desire the end of the system, as they are so sure when the system falls things will get better. They desire this, but it doesn't mean it will happen.

I am warm to a flat tax, using the VAT or consumer tax in each country only, yet with certain food items and first time home buying I would wish to have no tax at all (under a certain ceiling so as to encourage a home for people to give them a vested interest in their society).

For companies I would allow them to work with other companies in the same fields to have groups return centers for their products, where part of the price of the item would be returned to the buyer upon bringing the old product back. The centers would be paid for by the companies based on sales for each year. This would force them to turn their old products into new items and build a whole private industry around pick up such items. This would deal with the environmental problems privately and make sure anyone producing the product would need to have reps in each country to allow returns. If someone dumps the product on the side of the road or digs a hole someone will still have to pay for it when it is found and still have to come and pick it up. So companies pay the consumer tax on the items and company workers pay when they buy goods too. They would need to take back their goods, and their will be a few accountants with black rimmed glasses watching, to make sure the sales figures match the returned items.

Smaller products (made of paper, plastic & glass) can be retreived normally and then divided and reused (it is in co. interest to reuse it) for it will be based on the same numbers their stock based sales numbers are. Companies that dump a product many times will have to pay a independent or comany drivers to retrieve it many times (with inflationary prices if delayed for years in a hidden dump). The other companies will keep them in check as they won't want to pay higher expenses for the retrival centres that their sales are for that year. Companies going backrupt with have to pay their fees to this system too, as company heads won't be able to runaway with their product's profits as they will have to pay for the other companies to do away with their return goods.

This idea comes from in my youth when we returned bottles to the local story to get a nickel. The companies didn't like it but there was minimum government involement in the process and kids and homeless became little businessmen. In the old times these companies were taxed in other ways, so if they aren't taxed heavy and can be effiecent by cooperating in retrival, then they will center on reuse big time to give them a leg up in beating their competitors.

So as you can see I'm no free had to the companies man, I just want things private as much as possible, and in this way men will have their wealth back and big daddy and the nanny state won't beat up men at the behest of women who are the consumers.

I have ideas on drugs too, but I may be boring you.

I really think MRAs would give the other half to libertarian policy that which is lacking, as they are disunified on social policy at present (as economic men and big business lead in disunifying libertarians) for they like the two parties at their beck and call and must snivel to the female consumer!

Libertarians with MRA is a natural fit, as long as we can deal with the men that think porn is free speech, as you pointed out in Holland. Porn isn't free speech, it is just porn.

Quote from MenRep

Yes, there was a lot of detail and I dare say much truth in that post.

Let me ask you just one thing; as a libertarian how do you feel about "all tax abolition" as proposed by the US libertarian party? That means (tell me if I read this wrong) an unconditional halt on all tax paying across the nation.

Personally I see that as the go-ahead for a new scale of anarchy making the recent New Orleans riots seem like a stroll in the park.

I hadn't heard that the Libertarian Party favored abolition of all taxes so I looked up their web site. (www.lp.org) Here's what it says:


"Are Libertarians liberal or conservative?

"Libertarians are neither. Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty. For example, Libertarians advocate freedom in economic matters, so we're in favor of lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and charitable..."


Lower taxes are mentioned several places on their web site. Lower taxes have never meant no taxes. The Libertarians I've known accepted that there are some legitimate reasons for government and therefore a need for some much less tax.

They also advocate a "balanced budget" which is defined as limiting spending to no more than is collected.

I am curious where you got the impression that the Libertarian Party wants to repeal all taxes? Is there a different Libertarian Party? Can you give us a web site or something?

Blessings

Bob

Oh OH! I just learned that the Libertarian Party was founded on December 11

I hope York isn't reading this. He'll think it was a conspiracy.


Blessings

Bob

Personally, I think a big step forward for the MRP would be to set up a new website with a proper domain name.

A site modelled on that of Ireland's Father's Rights Responsibility Party would work well in my opinion.