Jenna Myers Karvunidis - UPDATE!

Quote from KellyMac

Good that it got taken down. I didn't get a chance to read it. Was the school letting random parents take kids to the bathroom, or was it an employee? That makes a difference, I think. I'd be more comfortable with an employee taking my kid to the bathroom, than a random parent. Doesn't matter male or female, adult or child.

On a related note, I just started volunteering to watch the little kids at church while their parents attend services. In the orientation, they told us that only women could change diapers and escort little ones to the bathroom (older ones don't need the help, obviously). It occurred to me, though, that it protects the men just as much as the children. Yes, it's sexist, and it's wrong. But all it takes is one accusation and a reputation is ruined. And that's just if you're lucky.

Here's an archive of it

Keep dads out of preschool potty duty - UPDATED | High Gloss and Sauce

I actually spat at my screen in anger when I read the UPDATE OCTOBER 2 part.

Quote from Jenna

That could be any assisting parent, like, say, a dad. Gulp.

Die of cancer.

Quote from Jenna

99% of sexual predators are men, only 1% are women and girls

Man, some of that there cancer would be fucking great right now.

Quote from Duran

Here's an archive of it

Keep dads out of preschool potty duty - UPDATED | High Gloss and Sauce

I actually spat at my screen in anger when I read the UPDATE OCTOBER 2 part.



Die of cancer.



Man, some of that there cancer would be fucking great right now.

You're right. What she wrote was disgusting.

Have you read any of what she's written since she was brought up short by reality?

Guys, you have to realize feminist indoctrination doesn't only brainwash men. You do realize that, right? People can change. Jenna didn't have to come on here and apologize. She didn't have to apologize on her blog. She didn't have to acknowledge the fallout from this at all, or she could have just said, "Look at all these pedophiles who have a problem with what I said? I guess this just proves that most men are perverts."

I am glad to see all of the input given to Jenna about where the problems are.

@Jenna: I hope you are serious about using your blog to address some of this stuff. You could do a lot of good. PM me if you want, or my email is kelly.ladymac@gmail.com.

@Marx: I apologize for jumping to conclusions about your post. It came across as a little hostile, mostly because I didn't see it in the way you meant it.

Jenna I just read your blog and am glad to see that you were able to widen your view on Men's rights, and I think your apology was both fair and sincere.

In today's society it is a rare person that will not only admit to a mistake but also learn from it. I am glad you are one of those people. You can now use that knowledge to help change the view in society that men = perpetual oppressor women = perpetual victim.

Quote from KellyMac

Have you read any of what she's written since she was brought up short by reality?

Guys, you have to realize feminist indoctrination doesn't only brainwash men. You do realize that, right? People can change. Jenna didn't have to come on here and apologize. She didn't have to apologize on her blog. She didn't have to acknowledge the fallout from this at all, or she could have just said, "Look at all these pedophiles who have a problem with what I said? I guess this just proves that most men are perverts."

Yeah I watched how she threatened to not give a crap and disappear if we didn't start being nice to her. The only reason she's here, the ONLY reason she is doing this is to save face and to look good, this isn't some change of heart, ask her now if she still feels the same about ANY man helping her daughter go potty, she'd probably deny it but she already made her true feelings known and those bigoted, feminist feelings don't just wash away after a taste of logic.

Yeah Jenna didn't have to do a lot of things, she didn't have to indirectly insult my dad by implying he's a paedophile who might rape her kid given the chance, she didn't have to indirectly insult me, or you know, 50% of the fucking population. The fact you think her coming here and owing up to this bullshit and apologising means we should be caring, forgiving people is absolutely absurd, you don't shoot someone in the face then tell their family immediatly after "oh im so sorry i see the error of my ways pls forgive me" then expect to be forgiven, do you? Did you actually read the part where she's actually got policies changed now which will most likely negatively effect men even more? Fuck this shit man, this shit right here is what is making me depressed with life.

Duran


Excellent!

It took some time for me to get around to this thread.

I can understand the outrage on Paul's blog, and his haughtiness. He does haughty well.

The points he raised in response to Jenn's outburst of misandry were measured and clearly made their effects felt.

The apology by Jenna - who did not have to come here - sounds heartfelt to me.

I sincerely hope that room can be made here for a woman who can say "I was wrong, and I apologise".

It was a manly thing to do, and one or two here could apologise too.

Jenna, welcome.

I hope we can be of further assistance in smacking your bottom when you say something untoward, and please educate us with a few smacks when we go overboard too..... as we often do.

Behaviour of the serial bully: attention seeker, wannabe, guru and sociopath including industrial psychopath, corporate psychopath and workplace psychopath

Avoiding acceptance of responsibility - denial, counterattack and feigning victimhood
The serial bully is an adult on the outside but a child on the inside; he or she is like a child who has never grown up. One suspects that the bully is emotionally retarded and has a level of emotional development equivalent to a five-year-old, or less. The bully wants to enjoy the benefits of living in the adult world, but is unable and unwilling to accept the responsibilities that go with enjoying the benefits of the adult world. In short, the bully has never learnt to accept responsibility for their behaviour.
When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave, the bully instinctively exhibits this recognisable behavioural response:

a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization ("This is so trivial it's not worth talking about...") and the Fresh Start tactic ("I don't know why you're so intent on dwelling on the past" and "Look, what's past is past, I'll overlook your behaviour and we'll start afresh") - this is an abdication of responsibility by the bully and an attempt to divert and distract attention by using false conciliation. Imagine if this line of defence were available to all criminals ("Look I know I've just murdered 12 people but that's all in the past, we can't change the past, let's put it behind us, concentrate on the future so we can all get on with our lives" - this would do wonders for prison overcrowding).

b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behaviour. Often the target is tempted - or coerced - into giving another long explanation to prove the bully's allegation false; by the time the explanation is complete, everybody has forgotten the original question.
Both a) and b) are delivered with aggression in the guise of assertiveness; in fact there is no assertiveness (which is about recognising and respecting the rights of oneself and others) at all. Note that explanation - of the original question - is conspicuous by its absence.
c) Feigning victimhood: in the unlikely event of denial and counter-attack being insufficient, the bully feigns victimhood or feigns persecution by manipulating people through their emotions, especially guilt. This commonly takes the form of bursting into tears, which most people cannot handle. Variations include indulgent self-pity, feigning indignation, pretending to be "devastated", claiming they're the one being bullied or harassed, claiming to be "deeply offended", melodrama, martyrdom ("If it wasn't for me...") and a poor-me drama ("You don't know how hard it is for me ... blah blah blah ..." and "I'm the one who always has to...", "You think you're having a hard time ...", "I'm the one being bullied..."). Other tactics include manipulating people's perceptions to portray themselves as the injured party and the target as the villain of the piece. Or presenting as a false victim. Sometimes the bully will suddenly claim to be suffering "stress" and go off on long-term sick leave, although no-one can quite establish why. Alleged ill-health can also be a useful vehicle for gaining attention and sympathy. For suggestions on how to counter this see the advice on the FAQ page.

By using this response, the bully is able to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for what they have said or done. It is a pattern of behaviour learnt by about the age of 3; most children learn or are taught to grow out of this, but some are not and by adulthood, this avoidance technique has been practised to perfection.
A further advantage of the denial/counter-attack/feigning victimhood strategy is that it acts as a provocation. The target, who may have taken months to reach this stage, sees their tormentor getting away with it and is provoked into an angry and emotional outburst after which the bully says simply "There, I told you s/he was like that". Anger is one of the mechanisms by which bullies (and all abusers) control their targets. By tapping in to and obtaining an inappropriate release of pent-up anger the bully plays their master stroke and casts their victim as villain.
When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave, mature adults do not respond by bursting into tears. If you're dealing with a serial bully who has just exhibited this avoidance tactic, sit passively and draw attention to the pattern of behaviour they've just exhibited, and then the purpose of the tactic. Then ask for an answer to the question.
Bullies also rely on the denial of others and the fact that when their target reports the abuse they will be disbelieved ("are your sure this is really going on?", "I find it hard to believe - are you sure you're not imagining it?"). Frequently targets are asked why they didn't report the abuse before, and they will usually reply "because I didn't think anyone would believe me." Sadly they are often right in this assessment. Because of the Jekyll & Hyde nature, compulsive lying, and plausibility, no-one can - or wants - to believe it. Click here for a detailed explanation of the target's reluctance to report abuse.
Denial features in most cases of sexual assault, as in the case of Paul Hickson, the UK Olympic swimming coach who sexually assaulted and raped teenage girls in his care over a period of 20 years or more. When his victims were asked why they didn't report the abuse, most replied "Because I didn't think anyone would believe me". Abusers confidently, indeed arrogantly, rely on this belief, often aggressively inculcating (instilling) the belief ("No-one will ever believe you") just after the sexual assault when their victim is in a distressed state. Targets of bullying in the workplace often come up against the same attitudes by management when they report a bullying colleague. In a workplace environment, the bully usually recruits one or two colleagues (sometimes one is a sleeping partner - see Affairs below) who will back up the bully's denial when called to account.

I've seen this behavior so much. Hey guys, I didn't see her blog but I saw about it on here. Do any of these behaviors strike a resemblance to that of Jenna's behavior?

This might be interresting. Either way, it's a sufficient start for the time being.

C'mon guys - despite her ignoring my points, I think she may well be sincere.

The proof is in the pudding.

She has apologised (to MRA's - but not to men as a whole, while it was men in general her blog was about) and she's made the effort to go to various sites and explain herself & apologise. That alone does take some...balls.

We can go look around in six months time and see what's up... If there's more of the "any man might be a paedophile" type post going about - then yep, she's still a misandrist. If not, then I think it safe to say she made a mistake, fessed up, tried to correct that error and tried to move. So.. let's see how it unfolds?

Percy - stop flirting, you tart!

I agree with Marx. Nobody can read Jenna's mind, so nobody knows for sure if she is sincere or not. I believe she really has changed her mind and is sorry now, although I can't prove it. We have nothing to lose by accepting her apology. What we have to gain is a potential ally who is a blogger with an established readership that is largely unaware of MRA issues.

I was just about to say largely what Bertie said. People aren't without hope, just because they've succumbed to certain feminist indoctrination; how are we ever going to change general opinion, if we take the attitude that we have no time for those of too different a mindset? People who come here with too provocative a tone may be beyond hope, but this Jenna seems to be illustrating a willingness to listen and learn; I, for one, am happy to do my bit in aiding with this. To the inquisitive mind, this site has no end of resources to help broaden it. I'm more than capable of reciprocating hostility with hostility; but as long as someone comes here with a reasonable tone and willingness to learn, I'm happier to respond with reasonableness and wisdom (well, the nearest I can come to wisdom....).

I was asked by a father if he was being over protective because his ex had a new man who bathed with his daughter while mum slept and he wasn't very happy about it.

It's easier to accept when it's not your OWN children but I wouldn't have a problem with my exes girlfriend bathing with my sons if they were babies or tots.

PS... I am not sticking up for anyone with my thoughts. IT'S A GOOD SUBJECT and I do see the sexism.

Quote from Jenna

It is so obvious how broken and hurting of a person you are. You want to see me suffer because you want another person to feel the pain you feel.

Nothing will ever change if you withdraw and blast out negativity. I can't coerce another person into feeling or doing anything, but I am telling you, I am sorry and I am trying to help. I already posted my apology on my blog and that alone is more than you will get from any other "foe" on this matter. Seriously, show me the other offenders in here trying to learn and promote MRA. Show me one.

I said ONE thing. ONE thing I regret. You're not human?

You would be wise to accept the apology and soften your heart that not everyone is out to hurt men.

No, I want you to suffer because you deserve it. I'm not buying this half-assed apology for a minute, you don't apologise with threats, like you've done here and even on your blog itself. You don't simply buy into such absurd statistics without checking some trustworthy sources first but more importantly than that, more important than any facts we could show you, you had a feeling/emotional reaction to a man helping your daughter go potty, not because of statistics you read but because you're anti-men, you don't trust men and none of that stems from logic or rationality but a deep seated hatred way down in the depths of your vindictive brain.

You're exactly the same as every other GI Jane feminist who has helped destroy the relationship between men and women for the past 60 years. What's happening with your pre-school now? Don't answer it, I'll do it for you, because of your hatred for men you've now gotten another anti-male policy put into place not just in your pre-school but most likely others aswell now, what do you plan on doing about that? Let me answer once again, NOTHING, because you still feel the same way, we both know it, so don't deny it.

As for not everyone is out to hurt men, obviously, but you most certainly ARE out to hurt men and you actually HAVE managed to damage men, you're much worse than a keyboard warrior ranting about how horrible men are, no, you're far more evil than that, you're the sort of CUNT who has helped reduce men to nothing more than walking ATMs in our western society.

Oh and the broken/hurting routine, save it please love, the older guys might be more forgiving here but they're not going to be the ones who have to fly the flag in the distant future, they thought they had it bad, this generation has had it 100x worse, the emotion of youth is far more raw and unforgiving, for good reason too. That's really all I have to say to you here, I'll just be ignoring you from this point on.

Duran. You are young and look to a future when you may have it worse, possibly, unless you do something about it.

You know only a little about GI Jane feminists as yet or many others, and will no doubt learn much as time goes on. You may become even angrier. You may learn about yourself too.

My generation that you dismiss as 'forgiving', have much to forgive that is actual and not simply expected. My generation has been through the mill. My generation has lost more than you have yet to acquire or are likely to. We have lost our children and you have yet to have any.

Yet, I can listen and I can hope for an accomodation. I can listen and hear someone aplogise. I can exercise my forgiveness where I think it is due.

Why can you not?

I have fought 'hot' enemies and now am able to forgive them.

You need to develop maturity before you advise others or commit yourself to an unforgiving future.

Whether you wish to dismiss 'Jenna' or not is your bizzo; whether you can listen or not, it is an ability you need to develop; whether you have the strength and courage to forgive today does not mean you might never find them. This is Men's Growth bisiness. The war will be over one day.

Percy - stop flirting, you tart!

I accept her apology for what it is worth. Squat.

Ahh, Mandy Rice Davis comes to mind.

Each to his own character and experience, but from some one hopes for more and from others not. Some acceptances are worth squat too. Maybe mine will prove worthless.

Quote from Popadibs

I've seen this behavior so much. Hey guys, I didn't see her blog but I saw about it on here. Do any of these behaviors strike a resemblance to that of Jenna's behavior?

Considering A, B, and C don't apply in this case, I'm not sure what you're getting at, Popadibs. Read the whole thread.

I was married to a person who did demonstrate these behaviors. Believe me, this doesn't fit Jenna.

Quote from Percy

We have lost our children and you have yet to have any.

We've lost our chance at ever having a family. (50% marriages end in divorce, yeah, I'd rather not play Russian Roulette with my life).

Quote from Percy

Why can you not?

Maybe I'm a bad person but people like this Jenna, I have no time for, I suggest you take the time to read her blog replies and so called apology, you might learn about just the sort of person you're dealing with here.

Apology to Men's Rights Activists | High Gloss and Sauce

Quote from Percy

I have fought 'hot' enemies and now am able to forgive them.

May I suggest that you're perhaps a little too lenient with a group who want to see you destroyed based on your gender?

Quote from Percy

The war will be over one day.

To quote Paul Fussell "I find nothing more depressing than optimism."

You make some great points that I will most certainly think over, Percy, however, on the matter of this "woman" named Jenna, you will never convince me that she's worth shit. I've read everything I've needed to read about her, I think you need to do the same to come to a more accurate conclusion on your easy to forgive attitude.