Thread: Article: Agent Orange Files at root of SPLC's branding the MRM as a hate movement

One thing I find tiring, and perhaps I can be accused of being short-sighted here, is the constant marginalizing of Antimisandry's input on the Agent Orange Files by the AVFM team, while beefing their own work out to imply they were the meat-grinders behind all the action, when in reality, they were not.

It would be nice to see AVFM actually recognise the input of other sites instead of taking 95% credit for work other groups do instead of the consistent downplaying.

Agent Orange was conceived on AM. The bulk of the research was done on AM by an AM member. The researching of names [of radfemhub members] was done via an AVFM reader. Not AVFM themselves.

Yet.. we'd never know this by the way the AVFM article's are written.

Isn't it about time AVFM stopping taking credit for other people's work and actually gave credit where due - just once? I know they're bigger than AM and do a lot more than AM... but when I see how AVFM writers 'imply' they're the only website doing anything - it gets annoying after a bit.

Being as you've been an admin here far longer than a front-man for AVFM, I had hoped for at least a marginal amount of loyalty to AM... but AM seems to be constantly stripped from mention on AVFM.

It’s a while since I posted, but I find that this string is reason to.

I didn’t know agent orange had anything to do with AM and all the above is revealing news to me. I would like to know more; in fact I would like to know all that can be prudently divulged by Robert and Marx.

I thought the agent orange revelations were a brilliant exposé, only lacking an effective mechanism to promote it, and its wider implications to the general public in a way they would take notice. But this criticism is more because I personally feel the entire global MRM output dose lack a mechanism to promote their issues to the wider general public and remains an inward serving body which doesn’t utilise something I refer to as the M-25 ethos. Out of necessity, I cannot divulge more of M-25 publicly, but it is something I barley try to develop with all my efforts and a few helpers.

Returning to the issue of this string, thank you Marx for bringing this to my attention, and I feel that it should be noted by all those who are aware of the agent orange files. Like many, I become aware of this brilliant ant-feminist work late last year through AVfM. The impression I had was that this was done primarily by one unknown individual closely related to Robert, and with some sort of vague support or promotion from AVfM. Maybe my interpretation of the articles I read on AVfM was faulty, but that is the interpretation I had, even if they don’t explicitly state so.

However, if what you say is true Marx, the impression I was given by AVfM articles is also faulty, and I now wander if that was deliberately or at least consciously so. The first line of the linked article is the first I’ve noticed of AM involvement and admittedly, I haven’t read everything on the subject.

Robert, my readings of matter related to the agent orange files gives me the impression that you are significantly concerned with its production. Can you clear this matter up for me please? What level of involvement did AM and AM members have in the production of agent orange? Is there any reason to play this down and post articles on AVfM that give me the impression AM has nothing to do with agent orange whilst AVfM and its members (exclusive of AM) do? – because that’s the impression I have from content on AVfM.

If either of you feel the answers are too sensitive to air publically, then please do so privately. Marx you should have no problem with this as you know me, but Robert, as we don’t know each other beyond the postings of this forum, do feel free to seek any credentials from me or Marx privately if you wish.

Naturally, I will not divulge who is behind Agent Orange. I will say they are a member of this site (AM) and have been a considerable time. They brought their files to me initially and in private talks we concluded on the term Agent Orange. My initial reason for putting that name forward was based on the 'Clockwork Orange' scene where Alex's eyes are forced open and he is made to watch violence... the idea being that anyone reading this would suffer a similar metaphorical fate of being unable to unsee the damage feminism is causing and some of it's heinous intentions.

AVFM was approached by the member Agent Orange to help promote it... but, as is so often the case, AVFM took full credit for all the work when their level of input was minimal. An AVFM member helped researching names of on-line identities of the feminists who had been screen-capped.

Bob has been an admin here for a long time. When he posts on AVFM no mention of AM is ever given.. Yet, when he posts here, I don't think I've seen a post go by without referencing AVFM.


I'm not demanding AVFM change it's articles or such - but some credit wouldn't go amiss for work that has been done by AM members instead of implying it's entirely down to AVFM teamwork, thus thoroughly skewing the reality of events.
It's also worth mentioning, I am talking in general about Agent Orange Files... AM had nothing to do with the newest information/article. I refer only to the original work.

It would be nice to see AVFM actually recognise the input of other sites instead of taking 95% credit for work other groups do instead of the consistent downplaying.

I guess this site doesn't belong in the,"chosen few",category.

I believe a while back I had also mentioned what I had percieved as an arrogant type of attitude from avfm.

They have their chosen few.

I don't post or comment there anymore.

In my mind,every site contributes to the mrm in some way or another,like Marx mentions though,no one would ever know it from reading avfm.

I quite agree Marx, as the ongoing efforts, meetings, discussions, world wide links, contacts and online video conferences that eventuated, all assisted and helped that excellent Agent Orange expose to see the light of day. But as with everything else in this game. We don't do it for the credit or the back patting but now and again some recognition would be nice, that's for certain..

I can only agree with Marx on this.

The 'expose' was very well done after a great deal of effort, largely by AM people.

But we are all MRAs.

AVfM is a success. It has done some fine work. It has, lately, expanded its team of people which has included several from here. Indeed, mostly from here. That really ought to be acknowledged at the very least.

But don't hold your breath.

This is not the first time that AM has been marginalised by a particular member (not seen here for a while) who got his first real exposure and encouragement at and from AM but who has gone on to take credit where it has been undue. At least being ignored is better than being rubbished and AM can be thankful that the narcissim and resentful ingratitude has not been used to sink the ship.

It is a good thing that AM acts as an incubator of talent.

MRAs do what we do in various places. We move about; we do things individually, and well: and mostly we are loyal to the Idea.

Ok, well that further illumination is helpful Marx, but I would still like additional clarification; and still like to read what Robert has to say because I don’t think it’s good form for AVfM to present the work of an individual MRA in what appears as a monopolistic manner.

Am I right in understanding that an individual we call AO did all the work in gaining access to radfemhub and saving the screen shots as an individual endeavour?

Then he approached you and then you both approached AVfM who were not privy to the matter before this point?

At the time of taking the Screenshots, was AO only a member of AM and not a member/contributor of AVfM, even though he may be so now?

Was Robert involved with the AO screenshots after AO approached you?

If you can verify these points as affirmative, it makes a very different impression to the one given to me by AVfM content.

Robert, I hope you continue to monitor this string and provide some explanation to...

Quote from Marx

Bob has been an admin here for a long time. When he posts on AVFM no mention of AM is ever given.. Yet, when he posts here, I don't think I've seen a post go by without referencing AVFM.

TFB, Back Channel is the better place for such interrogation.

Thank you for this christianj as it gives me a much more balanced picture of the total work of the AO files.

Quote from christianj

I quite agree Marx, as the ongoing efforts, meetings, discussions, world wide links, contacts and online video conferences that eventuated, all assisted and helped that excellent Agent Orange expose to see the light of day. But as with everything else in this game. We don't do it for the credit or the back patting but now and again some recognition would be nice, that's for certain..

Can I suggest that whilst I would like to recognise the merits of those involved, it is difficult if the people concerned keep it to themselves? I was not involved or knowledgeable of any of this work until it surfaced on AVfM. I am now beginning to see that I developed an unbalanced view from that outlet.

By your post, it is implied that you knew more. Perhaps those that were, could decide what information can be aired publicly as an explanation to generating and promoting the AO files. You say that recognition would be nice; I say that I would like to recognise. Recognise the reality, rather than the unbalanced view I was lead to develop.

To all those involved in the collective efforts to oppose the wrongs of feminism, don’t be shy - unwarranted modesty can lead to deception.

The reason that there is no mention of Antimisandry in this article or any article concerning the activities of Agent Orange and all of the members here that were involved in the AO project was because those activities here were supposed to be secret. While it is true that I amp up AVFM news in a seemingly self promotional way that is simply because I am the news director there and we are trying to build that up as much as possible. I understand the frustration here when I post articles also posted at AVFM appear to neglect the importance of this and other sites in the MRM, but this is not intentional. I did mention AMs role in the discipline action against Mary Kellett in the last article I posted.

I do not think that it is fair to accuse AVFM of adopting an arrogant attitude in regards to other MRA sites. In fact one of the primary objectives of the new radio show, AVFM News and Activism, is to feature activists throughout the MRM and to promote and support their activism as a way of encouraging others to get involved. The list of people we would like to have on the show is long and both Karl and Christian J. are on it.

I know that I may have neglected AM as an administrator while focusing on my work at AVFM and this has understandably caused some tension, some of which has not been resolved. But if at any time anybody feels that I have failed to give credit where it is due the only thing they need to do is send a PM my way. Articles can be edited and updated very easily where there is either an error or neglect.

Thanks for that explanation R.

Quote from christianj

We don't do it for the credit or the back patting but now and again some recognition would be nice, that's for certain..

Bang on. I wasn't looking for credit (after all, I am not AO, only AO truly deserves credit for their work)... What I'm pointing out is that AVfM has taken just about all the credit, leaving none for anyone else.

Quote from Trauma Fried Brains

Am I right in understanding that an individual we call AO did all the work in gaining access to radfemhub and saving the screen shots as an individual endeavour?

Correct.

Quote from Trauma Fried Brains

Then he approached you and then you both approached AVfM who were not privy to the matter before this point?

Correct.

Quote from Trauma Fried Brains

At the time of taking the Screenshots, was AO only a member of AM and not a member/contributor of AVfM, even though he may be so now?

Correct, AO signed up either in line with the AO files time-point or shortly after... at least, I hadn't seen any input from AO on AVfM until the AO files went live on air.

Quote from Trauma Fried Brains

Was Robert involved with the AO screenshots after AO approached you?

Not to my knowledge. Bob helped solidify relationship with AVfM in promoting AO files.

Quote from rohara

...the AO project was because those activities here were supposed to be secret.

Quite right, and the meat has remained secret. I've not given anything away. The only thing I've said that can be even remotely construed as a 'secret' is that AO is a member here... nothing more.

My point is, the way AO has been portrayed - and the way AM's side was dealt with gives the distinct impression that only AVFM had any involvement when that is not the case. As I think others here have mentioned, this isn't an isolated instance of myself feeling paranoid but rather a perception that others have taken from the way the articles are presented.

I have a deep respect for AVFM and the work it has done, but I am left wondering just how many other sites have been sidelined in articles that just forget to award any mention of their involvement while articles repeatedly refer to AVfM news sources, as if it's all under one AVfM umbrella.

The MRM isn't an umbrella under AVfM. AVfM is not the one-and-only. It is one of many. But I fear it's head is getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger.

ETA:

Quote from rohara

I know that I may have neglected AM as an administrator while focusing on my work at AVFM and this has understandably caused some tension, some of which has not been resolved. But if at any time anybody feels that I have failed to give credit where it is due the only thing they need to do is send a PM my way. Articles can be edited and updated very easily where there is either an error or neglect.

That's fine in theory, but no one should need do this. You're quick enough to inject AVfM into just about every post you make elsewhere without AVfM needing to contact you... so why not likewise? The idea of your admin-access on AM was actually to promote SAVE and the work you were doing there. Today, I don't think anyone realises you have any connections with SAVE.

What a comfort to see clarity in our objectives. (tongue firmly in cheek).

I can't help but compare this to the bolsheviks and the mensheviks, both more committed to destroying each other than to righting the wrongs they said they opposed...

Not at all. It's a matter of giving credit where credit is due. But like I mentioned earlier, we do not do this to polish our own little badge. We do it because it needs to be done. This is not some argument as to who is right or wrong. It is just clearing the air by voicing a grievance, which is fair enough.
Meanwhile we continue on and do the best we can to help and assist and make the MM grow and become a major political force and start taking some major action.
That is the bottom line..